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Ethanol fuels E10

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LI
LI
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Location : North East

Ethanol fuels E10

Post by LI on Tue 28 Aug 2018, 13:57

Hi y'all, it's been a while.  There are some articles in the news today about E10 fuel and how 600,000 cars aren't compatible. Just wondering if anyone has used 10% ethanol fuel in a CB? I think it's been available in the USA and some other places for a while.
GollyGosh
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Mothra the Radioactive
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Posts : 211
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by GollyGosh on Tue 28 Aug 2018, 15:51

There is a BMF article Here

Short answer, avoid it like the plague.

Talking to a guy in the trade and a BMF member, it is believed that to meet quotas for renewable resources the oil industry is on occasion exceeding the 5% maximum of ethanol currently allowed. 

It's not just older vehicles, he knows of instances where ethanol has damaged new bikes, in particular those with plastic tanks.

He also advised draining the carbs when the bike is not in use to avoid corrosion and gumming up.
Jameshambleton
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by Jameshambleton on Tue 28 Aug 2018, 20:17

ditto^
it's all over europe, a bloody nightmare, it'll strip the tank lining, wreck the seals in the fuel tap and the carbs as well as block the carbs up too.
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sullivj
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by sullivj on Tue 28 Aug 2018, 23:24

Is using the premium fuel (97) likely to be better?
foolgene
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E-fuels.....rubbish

Post by foolgene on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 21:14

Wotcher,

Keep it simple, avoid like the plague.


Short term use with regular 'proper' fuel refills and burns - not too much of an issue.
However, sitting static for days at a time, the science is.....

ethanol forms a binary solvent mixture in the tank.
ethanol is miscible (mixable) with any amount of water.
if you drink whisky (~60% water), wine (~86% water), or beer (~95% water), you'll know what I mean.
As the numbers work out, in a 15L tank filled with E10, the ethanol can support 60, 000ppm water, before it separates out.
(just accept that number it's a solvate/partition coefficient thing)
this means, the 1.5L of ethanol can have 60% water in it, i.e, 900mL of water.
So, this water will be corroding your tank, gumming air-jet emulsion tubes and generally creating high-polar havoc with seals designed for low-polar solvents (petrol).
Now, your fuel attendant who is selling you this stuff, says the ethanol is dry so quit your whinging.
This is true, however, what he doesn't tell you, is that the ethanol very quickly absorbs water from the air.
'But, there's no air in my tank when it's full'
Also true, however, as soon as any fuel is burnt, the tank backfills with ambient air, now correct me if I'm wrong, but it often rains in this country, so, you're pulling 'wet' air into the tank, where the ethanol happily grabs the water.
So, after a few re-fills, your 'dry' tank is no longer dry and all its metal components are in intimate contact with the rust weevil's friend, water.
You decide what this can do after a winter lay over (let alone the 4 years my CB500 stood before I bought it, there is another story there...)


Science never sleeps
GollyGosh
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Mothra the Radioactive
Mothra the Radioactive

Posts : 211
Location : Grimsby, Lincolnshire

Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by GollyGosh on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 22:02

Regarding premium fuels, from what I understand, that was mostly true a few years ago depending on the area of the country. Ethanol is now at all tanker depots in all areas and is present in premium fuels.

Although there is a legal requirement to add ethanol to 95RON there is no requirement add it to premium petrols.  That said, the petroleum industry say they are under pressure to meet the Government's Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation and as such are having to add it to the premium fuels to meet quota's.


That's their excuse whilst a cynic might say ethanol is cheaper so adding it increases their profits.
jchesshyre
jchesshyre
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by jchesshyre on Tue 08 Jan 2019, 11:04

Have a read through this...

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/
GollyGosh
GollyGosh
Mothra the Radioactive
Mothra the Radioactive

Posts : 211
Location : Grimsby, Lincolnshire

Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by GollyGosh on Tue 08 Jan 2019, 14:29

@jchesshyre wrote:Have a read through this...

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/



With respect that discussion is more relevant to low sulphur petrol and GTO big lump muscle cars.  The use of the marine 2 stroke oil providing upper cylinder lubrication and progressively cleaning the fuel system on what are now high mileage cars.

This is another link regarding Ethanol

https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/

As the article and comments show it is not just 'classic bikes' that can be affected...
jchesshyre
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by jchesshyre on Wed 09 Jan 2019, 10:20

@GollyGosh wrote:

@jchesshyre wrote:Have a read through this...

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/





With respect that discussion is more relevant to low sulphur petrol and GTO big lump muscle cars.  The use of the marine 2 stroke oil providing upper cylinder lubrication and progressively cleaning the fuel system on what are now high mileage cars.

This is another link regarding Ethanol

https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/

As the article and comments show it is not just 'classic bikes' that can be affected...
If you read through the thread (it is on the long side...) there is much discussion about using TCW-3 oil with regard to offsetting some of the bad effects of ethanol in fuel system components in vehicles other than big GTO cars - apparently it helps to scavenge the moisture that ethanol attracts and mitigate the 'dry' qualities of ethanol-laced petrol.
ceejay
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by ceejay on Wed 09 Jan 2019, 11:08

From the article posted by Golly Gosh:
"It’s worth also noting that at the time of the original consultation, the EU did generously decide to approach manufacturers to see whether they considered their current vehicles were compatible with blended fuel at up to 10% ethanol use. Guess what came back as non-compliant?




“All motorcycle and all terrain vehicles manufactured by Honda, Kawaskai, Piaggio, Suzuki and Yamaha.”





Haha


Has anyone ever know noticed this gum stuff (pictured in the article) in their CB500 carbs or any adverse effects of E5 on their bikes? I didn't have anything like that in mine. I did however have rust residue from the tank which I have now sealed with an (apparently) ethanol resistant sealant... I've not had my carbs apart for a few years but would be interested to see the state of them now given the bike has stood for long periods at times.


The TCW-3 forum posts was interesting too, although admittedly haven't read through it all! Is this something you have tried on  your bikes?
GollyGosh
GollyGosh
Mothra the Radioactive
Mothra the Radioactive

Posts : 211
Location : Grimsby, Lincolnshire

Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by GollyGosh on Wed 09 Jan 2019, 16:47

@jchesshyre I must also admit I only read the first few and last few pages of the link. 

Regarding the dryness of petrol, it is due to the removal of lead and subsequently sulphur. Both of which provided lubrication to the upper cylinder. I'm not aware of it reducing lubrication in normal use though if left sitting for a period the ethanol will start to break down and amongst other things it produces water which certainly has no lubricating quality.

As said by 'armchairbiker' and other sources, vehicles in regular use all year round should not have problems only vehicles that are not used/laid up and prepped are liable to suffer.

The most important prep is draining the carb.  As I had a full tank and wouldn't be using again until the Spring I added Wynns Dry Fuel and ran the bike for 10 mins before turning the petcock off and draining the carb.

@ceejay what sealant did you use?  It seems like a good belt and braces approach...
jchesshyre
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Re: Ethanol fuels E10

Post by jchesshyre on Wed 09 Jan 2019, 17:49

The only things I've noticed in my bikes which *could* be down to ethanol are 1. On my CB the heads of the pilot mixture screws have turned to green dust (I posted about this on here ages ago -http://www.cb500club.net/t4049-pilot-screw ) but this is an odd one as presumably this could only be down to ethanol in the petrol if the o-rings were leaking slightly, and even then it's a bit tenous. and 2. on my VTR the carb diaphragm rubbers were slightly cracked (not all the way through, just on the surface near where they join the slide) - again, this could be down to something like age rather than ethanol.

I am currently running TCW-3 oil through both bikes at a ratio of 1:500, and have been for the last couple of months. I don't think there's an appreciable increase in fuel economy and if there is a change in smoothness or anything it's probably too subtle to notice...so I'll probably stop doing it soon.  Laughing

Also, @GollyGosh, lubrication of the upper cylinder is definitely one of the claimed benefits of using TCW-3 oil as an additive, but I guess I'm taking the thread a bit off-topic with that. The reason I brought it up is because I ended up reading through most of that massive thread on LS1.com about it a couple of months ago and remember ethanol being mentioned a fair bit.

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