Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.

Is this normal?

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Grarea
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Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 10:50 am

I suspect I am over thinking this.
I have been hearing and fixing noises all over the place.
So, probably another noob question.

I have something that buzzes every time i go past 4.5k revs  Smile
But that one can wait. (I just won't go below 4.5k revs)


The one I am wondering about is a kind of grumbling.
Almost a bit like something isn't lubed properly or the chain rubbing or something.
It isn't hugely loud, but you can detect it when riding so it is on my mind so I thought that I would ask.

I suspect (hope) everyone says 'yeah, just ignore it'.

So it makes the noise when it is under power.
It has to be in gear and running.
Pull the clutch in and it goes away.
What is it?
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Fair Weather Rider
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Fair Weather Rider on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:19 am

A grumbling sound suggests a bearing to me.
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wornsprokets
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by wornsprokets on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 12:02 pm

Honda clutch rattle its been in all hondas ive had...roller bearing in clutch...ignore it
 I dont detect it when riding though?


Last edited by wornsprokets on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vardypeeps
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Vardypeeps on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 12:36 pm

Fair Weather Rider wrote:A grumbling sound suggests a bearing to me.

Buzzy noise could be a ill fitting side panel or loose rad fairing etc
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ZekeVal
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by ZekeVal on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 3:13 pm

Between 4.5 and 6k, my whole fairing vibrates (S model), that might be because both pegs are broken  geek
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wornsprokets
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by wornsprokets on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 4:06 pm

Ive just got an s version  also a v model. even on tick over fairing vibrates a bit... i havent  ridden it yet as it needs more work
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:12 pm

wornsprokets wrote:Honda clutch rattle its been in all hondas ive had...roller bearing in clutch...ignore it
 I dont detect it when riding though?

Hold on, pardon?
You notice it when stationary?
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:14 pm

Vardypeeps wrote:

Fair Weather Rider wrote:A grumbling sound suggests a bearing to me.



Buzzy noise could be a ill fitting side panel or loose rad fairing etc

Yeah, could be anything couldn't it?
I will find it one day. 
I haven't looked to see if it does it at 4.5k stationary.
That will make life easier.
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wornsprokets
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by wornsprokets on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:21 pm

Yep theres rattle when standstill ...but goes when clutch pulled in...i had that in cbr900 to cb1 400 to cb500
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Jameshambleton
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Jameshambleton on Wed 12 Apr 2017, 7:57 am

Mine has a weird sounding rattle at some revs, mainly because I cross threaded the clock mounting bolts and the rear cowling sometimes vibrates slightly.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by eternally_troubled on Thu 13 Apr 2017, 7:21 pm

Grarea wrote:I suspect I am over thinking this.


Probably :)  But I can understand why you are concerned.  The only 'bad' vibration I had at around 4k rpm was because one of the radiator shrouds was loose - I wouldn't have described this as a 'rumble', more a buzz, so I suspect your problem isn't that.

Grarea wrote:
I suspect (hope) everyone says 'yeah, just ignore it'.

Kinda.  I'd say 'live with it but keep an eye (ear?) on it' rather than 'ignore it'.  Changing the chain and sprockets on my bike made a grumble go away that I'd been hearing for a while - if it's that then you are sorted, but you won't know until you change the final drive.

If it gets noticeably worse then it might well be worth spending more time identifying the cause, but for now just monitor it and see what happens.


Last edited by eternally_troubled on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 4:48 pm

eternally_troubled wrote:


Grarea wrote:I suspect I am over thinking this.




Probably :)  But I can understand why you are concerned.  The only 'bad' vibration I had at around 4k rpm was because one of the radiator shrouds was loose - I wouldn't have described this as a 'rumble', more a buzz, so I suspect your problem isn't that.

Grarea wrote:
I suspect (hope) everyone says 'yeah, just ignore it'.




Kinda.  I'd say 'live with it but keep an eye (ear?) on it' rather than 'ignore it'.  Changing the chain and sprockets on my bike made a grumble go away that I'd been hearing for a while - if it's that then you are sorted, but you won't know until you change the final drive.

If it gets noticeably worse then it might well be worth spending more time identifying the cause, but for now just monitor it and see what happens.

Yes, that is kind of what I am doing.
Hard to know if it is getting worse or if I am more tuning in to it.
It is definitely more of a noise when there is power on.
It goes away when you ease off the throttle as well as pull in the clutch.
Maybe it is the chain / sprockets.
It is kind of rhythmic.  :) These things are surprisingly hard to explain.
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 5:03 pm

Right, possibly another stupid question.
I Was having a try and see if I could hear the noise.
I have adjusted the clutch cable according to Haynes.
With 10-20mm freeplay.

So, my stupid question:
When you put it in gear (engine running, on centre stand).
Pull the clutch in, should it completely disengage the back wheel?
As in, I can't stop the wheel.

Edit:
I can't stop the back wheel with my foot when it is on its stand, but when stationary and I am on it, it doesn't try and creep forward.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 5:10 pm

Grarea wrote:Right, possibly another stupid question.
I Was having a try and see if I could hear the noise.
I have adjusted the clutch cable according to Haynes.
With 10-20mm freeplay.

So, my stupid question:
When you put it in gear (engine running, on centre stand).
Pull the clutch in, should it completely disengage the back wheel?
As in, I can't stop the wheel.

If you really can't stop it (like you could ride away with the clutch pulled in) then you are not disengaging the clutch and need to tighten the cable a bit. If it's just a bit of rear wheel movement that stops when you (say) put your boot in it (without ripping your leg off, natch) then it's fine.

I tend to adjust mine towards the tighter end (i.e. only a little bit of slack) and then if that feels 'weird' (like the clutch seems to disengage too 'early') I add a bit more slack back in. 10 - 20 mm of freeplay sounds like a lot - is that at the *end* of the clutch lever? 10-20 mm of cable-slack sounds like waaay too much to me.
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 6:35 pm

It seemed like a lot to me, but i did what I was told  Smile
so, yes, I should be able to stop it with my boot, that is what I thought.
I am a bit surprised that it doesn't drive off when I am on it.
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 7:06 pm

OK, so, if i have tightened it to zero play and still can't stop it with my boot, then kept tightening it as far as i could at both the lever end and the clutch end and still can't stop the wheel. I suppose questions are:

1) Am I being too woosy with my boot trying to stop it? 
2) Has the cable worn?
3) Actually, how far over should the lever be at the clutch end?
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Jameshambleton
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Jameshambleton on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 8:10 pm

1. possibly but not exactly. 
2/3. this is also a possibility though remember if the cable is loose and then there should be about 10-20mm of free play at the end of your clutch lever.
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 10:41 am

Am I going about this right?
Or am I getting it completely wrong? Am I going the wrong way with stuff? I am a bit confused.

I thought that I would try and achieve getting the back wheel to disengage completely,
then I could come back a bit perhaps.

I tightened the cable until there was zero play.
Then I have tightened the cable to the max at both ends. (I think)
Just to test where I am at.

So, the bike is on its centre stand. I start the engine in gear with the clutch in.
If I wedge hard my foot against it, I can just about keep it from spinning.
It involves me pulling against the bike with my right hand hard to create enough resistance to keep it from spinning otherwise it just gets going and I can't stop it.

If I let it get up to speed (two seconds) I can't stop it. I have tried pulling against the bike, to the point where it almost kicked it off the centre stand. I stopped trying there thinking that can't be right. It slows the engine note slightly while I try and stop the wheel.

Am I being stupid?
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 12:03 pm

I just thought, if it is wrong (please let me know if it is or not),
if it is just a stretched cable, would it show at the engine end?
As in, does this look like it isn't pulling far enough?

Clutch lever released:
IMGP9378 by chuffedas, on Flickr
Clutch lever fully pulled in:
IMGP9379 by chuffedas, on Flickr

Is that how far everyone else's pulls in?
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 12:19 pm

Just thought of another test.
On centre stand, first gear, engine off.
Clutch in, can't turn the wheel at all.
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jonnyteabag
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by jonnyteabag on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 1:33 pm

This is exactly the symptoms my daughter Lou's bike had when she got it, and with all the cable adjustments in the world this problem would not go away.

On her bike the clutch would perform faultlessly when cold and with the bike in gear and clutch lever pulled in the rear wheel would not turn.  However, as the bike warmed up the rear wheel would start to turn as if the clutch lever was out and the rear wheel then could not be stopped with your foot no matter how hard you tried.

When you sat on the bike with the engine hot, in gear with the clutch pulled in the bike on level ground did not seem to creep, however, if you held the clutch in with the bike in gear and rolled the bike off the stand whilst standing by the side it would try to drive off.  Obviously showing the clutch dragging.  I always suspected the cause of this was that her bike had been stood inside for a couple of years unused and after a little more investigation (removing clutch cover and pulling the clutch pack out) found that the front two clutch plates were nice and oily i.e. normal, but everything else was bone dry and had been getting rather too hot with the result that the steel plates had all gone blue with heat damage.  This was rectified by fitting a new EBC clutch pack with a new set of steel plates.  (Soaked in oil before fitting).  Her problem is now solved.

As a note the rear wheel still turns when the engine is up to temperature with the bike in gear and clutch pulled in but can be easily stopped with your hand/foot although it starts turning again once you remove your hand/foot. 

A lot of the previous bikes I have owned have had this wheel rotation issue to a degree and usually sticking a foot on the tyre will generally stop the wheel.  Lou's bike obviously had a problem as the only way to stop the wheel turning would be to put the rear brake on which would slow the engine idle as a result. 

Can I ask if you use your bike regularly?  My neighbour who also has a CB500 with well over 100,000 on the clock but uses his bike every day has never had a clutch drag problem and can only assume that it is lack of use that dries the clutch plates out.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

JT Rolling Eyes
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 3:16 pm

Thanks for that.
Well, that all makes sense. 
Sounds like a new cable isn't going to sort it then.

It gets used at least three times a week. Often every day of the week even if just for short journeys.
But I have only had it since last august I think it was.
So who knows how it has been used.
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jonnyteabag
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by jonnyteabag on Sat 15 Apr 2017, 4:21 pm

I'll add that the first thing I did when we got Lou's bike was change the oil and filter and because the clutch never showed a problem when cold I assumed that all was well..it was only when Lou complained of hearing a groaning noise from the engine when crawling along in traffic you know 1st gear under 10mph, I first thought was the brakes were binding but it proved to be the completely dry clutch pack which was causing the noise.

I used to own a big Yam FJR and the owners forums would often talk of removing the clutches to find completely dry plates from new, which would often cause the bike to judder on setting off from stand still..so the cure was to soak the fibre plates overnight before refitting to find the problem completely solved.

I can't help feeling that the oil flow thru the clutch on motorcycle wet clutches is flawed in as much as oil is not fed thru the centre but instead splashed onto the clutch which is then spinning at high revs so the centre is only marginally fed at best (if at all in Yams case)

Keep us informed of your findings

Ride safe!

JT Rolling Eyes
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Grarea
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Grarea on Sun 16 Apr 2017, 7:31 am

jonnyteabag wrote:I'll add that the first thing I did when we got Lou's bike was change the oil and filter and because the clutch never showed a problem when cold I assumed that all was well..it was only when Lou complained of hearing a groaning noise from the engine when crawling along in traffic you know 1st gear under 10mph, I first thought was the brakes were binding but it proved to be the completely dry clutch pack which was causing the noise.

I used to own a big Yam FJR and the owners forums would often talk of removing the clutches to find completely dry plates from new, which would often cause the bike to judder on setting off from stand still..so the cure was to soak the fibre plates overnight before refitting to find the problem completely solved.

I can't help feeling that the oil flow thru the clutch on motorcycle wet clutches is flawed in as much as oil is not fed thru the centre but instead splashed onto the clutch which is then spinning at high revs so the centre is only marginally fed at best (if at all in Yams case)

Keep us informed of your findings

Ride safe!

JT Rolling Eyes
OK, thanks for this.
I have done all the other service things.

It is my only transport and I am skint, so just pondering the logistics.
I have been having a bit of a read up.
It seems like a fairly easy job with the clutch nut being the main problem.
Is that right?

The problem being the cost of just having a look is a new gasket (which seems to be £15)
and a new clutch nut.
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Jameshambleton
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Re: Is this normal?

Post by Jameshambleton on Sun 16 Apr 2017, 6:49 pm

Clutch nut needs a drift to undo it and some stupid size socket. (my 32mm doesn't even come close)

I wouldn't recommend attempting to do this without an impact driver.

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