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Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

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Jack359
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Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 4:15 pm

Hey guys,

is it normal after a ride if I let the motorcycle to idle stationery, the temperature gauge to jump to 3/4 of maximum and from time to time the fan to start and bring the temperature down a bit but not under the 3/4 mark. The outside temperature was 13 Degrees Celsius, so pretty cold.  Also did some 8-s on first gear without any throttle for 10 min and the temperature gauge was remaining on the 3/4 of the maximum. 

I read that the cb 500 is pretty cool machine. Well, if Im riding it, rarely goes up half way the temperature gauge but standing is another story. Still havent got in trafic jam or heavy stop and go riding in hot weather to test it out.


Last edited by Jack359 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tricky.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Tricky. on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:26 pm

water pump working? rad blocked? have you flushed the system recently?
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:00 pm

Damn.. I hoped its normal and I'm just a bit paranoid about the bike because I got it less than a month ago  scratch

 I read around in other forums that other water cooled bikes didn't like idling while standing still for prolonged times because of lack of air passing the radiator and consequently overheating.

I will check the water pump tomorrow but I guess it is OK because if it is not working should be worse especially riding it fast for prolonged times and I drove it recently on highway and the temperature gauge needle was just above cold.. Haven't flushed yet cause I'm about to make valve adjustment and anyways I have to drain the coolant.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by eternally_troubled on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 1:52 pm

If the fan comes on and it keep the bike cool then there is nothing to worry about for now.  It would be interesting to do the same test on a hot day to assure yourself it is OK.

If you have the tank off at some point it would be worth checking the coolant level.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 2:13 pm

I will take off the tank today. Twisted Evil 

How do I check the coolant level with the tank removed? scratchWhat is the difference between this and the normal coolant check performed by inspecting the coolant reservoir while the bike is cold and with tank on? confused
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by eternally_troubled on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 3:16 pm

The bit you can see underneath the air box is the coolant reservoir - you need to make sure it has the appropriate amount of water in it but it isn't the same as the level in the system.

Taking the tank off will allow you to see the top of the system (the spring-loaded cap). Assuming the system is cold (or at least cool) then you can take the cap off and see how full the main system is - it should be up to the bottom of the cap or so.

The reservoir is only an 'overflow' - as the engine heats up the coolant expands and when the system reaches its specified pressure the pressure can push the sprung-valve in the cap open and send some water into the reservoir (probably better called an expansion tank) via a hose near the top of the expansion tank. As the system cools down the water contracts causing a slight negative pressure which allows water to be sucked back into the system from the hose at the bottom of the expansion tank.
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Jack359
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 4:35 pm

I got it, so the so called "reservoir" under the air filter is just expansion tank.  scratch

So if lets say I have oil contamination from bad head gasket, I wouldn't be able to spot it so good in the expansion tank but under the pressure cap it will be easier because of the oily sludge left by the oil. 

Thank you for the brilliant explanation! cheers   

Can't wait to remove the tank and check what is happening under the pressure cap.

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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by sullivj on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 5:30 pm

Have a good look at the pressure cap rubber whilst you're there. A faulty cap has been known to force coolant out of the overflow pipe.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Sun 03 Jul 2016, 1:39 am

Well, maybe I shouldnt have opened the pressure cap today, because it kind of ruined the weekend mood..




The sludge doesn't feel oily.

There is just a bit of coolant at the bottom under the the pressure cap although my expansion reservoir is full above the upper level..





I ran the engine and I could see coolant flowing so the pump should be working BUT it is fricking foaming like jacuzzi inside.

I took a very short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF5EO1IWjDM


Next thing I checked was the oil.

One of the tests if an oil is good is to check if it is going to disolve in the water or create bead on the surface of the water, if it disolves it is bad. ( I dont know how accurate and trustworthy is this test as I read about it on the 
internet.


Took a drop of the oil on the dipstick and put on the water, it didnt disperse in the water but created a bead.  So far so good..






Next test was what a automotive technician taught me - I took a drop of the oil, put it on a piece of metal and with the flame of a lighter heated it up so if there is water it should start popping - again nothing.

The oil looks good for now.

Well, that was it for today..  

Tomorrow, I will try to flush it and run it with tap water to see  if it will continue to create foam or bubbles.  Also when the engine is cold I will untighten the oil drain plug a bit and gather 50-100ml of oil to examine it.. If there is water in the oil, it should be on the lowest point of the engine.
Monday anyways I'm ordering from Ebay the chemical test for combustion gasses in the coolant and then I will know for sure in a week or two.

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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by sullivj on Sun 03 Jul 2016, 7:47 am

I've not seen 'frothy' coolant before. It's possible that a contaminate has been mixed with the coolant before it was put in. Maybe someone cleaned their pouring jug with washing up liquid, but didn't rinse it properly?! That might explain the crusting around the cap.

Flush and change the coolant and go from there.

Have you checked that the fan definately kicks in? It takes some time, but a rusted earthing point is a common failure.

There's definately too much in your overflow bottle. Make sure you follow the correct process for refilling the system, to make sure you get the level right.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Tricky. on Sun 03 Jul 2016, 10:42 am

when you flush the system, do it more than once to make sure its nice and clean.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by eternally_troubled on Mon 04 Jul 2016, 9:57 am

It is sometimes possible to get that sludge without having a head gasket problem, so I wouldn't worry just yet.

It will be interesting see what your test-kit says.

Irrespective of this, if you clean up that sludge and then flush and replace the coolant it should only make things better.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by magicman-alex on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 7:57 pm

Agreed.

I read on a forum once that some engineers put a teaspoon of washing powder in the water when cleaning out the water passages. Someone might have done that.

Never had the bottle to try that myself. What I normally do is get a load of distilled water and flush it out a number of times using that (don't like putting tap water in my cooling system). This time of year, you won't have a problem with the water freezing and causing any damage. Once clean, I always use Honda pre-mixed coolant. Sure it's a bit more expensive but I struggled that much with my cooling system that a few extra pounds for the added peace of mind doesn't bother me.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 8:17 pm

Thank you for the helpful comments Surprised  .The CO2 head gasket test is arriving Friday, I want to run it first to eliminate any doubt about head gasket problem. I'm intending to do some touring with the CB500 and prefer to have a peace of mind.

Hopefully is just the coolant. Rolling Eyes  I will keep you posted
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Stooby2 on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 8:32 pm

Take your radiator off and hold it up to the light. If you can't see much, or any light, you've probably found your problem. My old radiator was almost a solid lump of road muck and corrosion and no amount of cleaning helped. Combine that with sludged up waterways internally and your best option is a new radiator - and a fender extender to stop it getting clogged again.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 8:57 pm

The bike came with a short fender extender and aftermarket Five Stars fairing.  The radiator doesn't look 
 bad from the front, I will try to remove it when I flush the coolant.  Good tip, maybe even a bit of cleaning with compressed air will help for the future.  Smile
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 6:59 pm

The head gasket test arrived a day earlier.
The test is positive.. Neutral After 5 min idling turned from blue to green, tried it twice just to be sure.  Im ordering new head gasket and will polish,flatten the head and block next days. Crossed fingers is just head gasket.

 Maybe I will put some compressed air in the cilynders while they are at TDC and see if there will be bubbles in the coolant so I can pinpoint more accurately where is the crack. But I doubt I will get bubbles in the coolant if it is really small crack.

P.S. I cannot seem to find OEM Head gasket .. Davidsilverspares doesn't have and the other places where I checked the head gaskets are not OEM..  Does somebody know from where I can buy one (in Europe) ?
In the Honda manual is not specified that I have to replace the head bolts. Somebody done this procedure before and maybe knows if the bolts are reusable ?
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 8:21 am

I can't remember which year our bike is but it might be, but it looks like Lings Honda can get the original one:

http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_motorcycle_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=13MY5WEA&block_02=E__0200&block_03=1612&block_04=xx&block_05=hmc

It is also worth looking at CMS NL :

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500-1997-v-england_model1579/gasket-cylinder-h_12251my5601/

I have only looked up the one for the '97 model (like mine!) but TBH I think they are all the same.

Good luck in fixing your bike - if you end up taking the head off and replacing the head gasket (and you have the time/energy) we'd all love to see some photos.
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jameshambleton on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 12:14 pm

I have a spare genuine honda headgasket that you can have at cost, they can take a while to be delivered from dealers. I had to wait a week for mine!

Part number: 12251-MY5-601


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Jack359
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 12:08 pm

And the fun starts  Very Happy

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Jack359
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 1:03 pm

The sub air filter or what is left of it...



7EUR new one from David Silver Spares. Quite a lot for a piece of sponge... Somebody used something else than the original one?
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jameshambleton on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 1:54 pm

I personally use an old sock in the sub air filter, keeps the big bits out
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Jack359
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 5:50 pm

Valve clearence measuring 

When the timings marks on the sprockets align, the marks in the timing window do not align..  The T line is quite off to the left.





Last edited by Jack359 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jack359
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by Jack359 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 9:51 pm

The mentioned misalignment is due to a bit stretched chain. It is approximately half a tooth.

Measured the valve clearances. It seems I need 8 shims...

I will measure again with the head off and no tensioner. I think they  missed to write  in the manual that it should be measured without tensioner. In other original shop manuals for other models, it is written to be removed.
Anyone to chime in?  


Here is the diagram of the measurements with the tensioner closely following the  manual.


James, thanks for the  tip about  the sock, I read some guys were doing it with older Hondas, nice to know it works with CB500. Smile
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Re: Getting too hot stationery while idling on a stop after long drive?

Post by eternally_troubled on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 11:10 pm

People have used various things instead of the 'real' sub air filter - the easiest to obtain is probably a washing-up sponge, cut to size, of course.

I had sheet of generic 'filter foam' from a previous bike so cut a bit off that.

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