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help with a dead honda

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liverpool_f_
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help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 2:29 pm

Hi all,

I woke up to a rather rare dead cb this morning. Turned the key and the dash lit up, pushed the starter and everything died. No lights or anything. After a while, the power came back on and I tried the starter again with the same results. I think I heard a relay at the back of the bike click when I pushed the starter. The bike gets ridden every day and the battery is only a few months old. I have fitted heated grip a few months back but I have had no issues with them. The bike has started every morning, even on the coldest 7am starts. All fuses are fine.

I am thinking knackered started relay. A well informed friend of mine suggested charging issues lead to a knackered battery, which, with the crap regulator/rectifiers is always a possibility, although I have never had an issue. 

I open the floor to the CB geniuses that lurk around here as my car is also partially disassembled and I have had to knick the mrs bike which she is not greatly chuffed about.
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Jameshambleton
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Jameshambleton on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 2:57 pm

I have had this problem before and it turned out that the screw on the battery terminals had come loose and it was a dodgy connection as it wasn't making a full connection.
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jerryfudd
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by jerryfudd on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:27 pm

I'd start off by checking the battery and earths....
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teamster1975
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by teamster1975 on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:50 pm

Have you tried sticking it in gear and rocking the bike back and forth? If you can hear the starter relay the starter motor may be sticking, I often found it happened on cold mornings. Not been a problem for a while touch wood!

sullivj
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by sullivj on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:51 pm

Sounds like the battery to me. I know it's quite new, but it could have drained anyway.

If the reg/rec has failed, it could have killed the battery.

Charge it (if you can), and report back.
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liverpool_f_
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 5:20 pm

I do have a spare. I will stick it on charge overnight and see if it yields any results. I will give teamsters suggestion a bash as well when I get home tonight and report back. It is a very bizarre feeling being let down the the CB. It has never happened before!
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wornsprokets
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by wornsprokets on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 5:44 pm

I stick a multimeter on battery and check voltage, i push start bike see what voltage your getting rev to 5k see voltage also. My yuasa wasnt a year old but packed up, regulator rectifier was faulty also i reckon it damage battery same happened my blade(r,r toast also battery that was a bosch fairly new. Cold weather also not good for battery,   run a new cable to regulator rectifiers earth from negative of battery terminal wil help  r,r.
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mcalvert39
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by mcalvert39 on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 7:53 pm

Same thing happened to me a while ago. I took the cover off the side, gave the main fuse a wiggle and it all came back on. Never had a problem since.

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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Guest on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 7:07 am

Measure voltages, measure continuity, check connections, ...
Battery voltages loaded (9v - 11v) and unloaded (12v - 13v), continuity of cables to/fro 30A fuse and relay, also relay switching operation, all electrical connections for loose or corrosion, ...
Perhaps starter motor but then it wouldn't show up all at once and I guess you'd have noticed it before getting worse.
Basically what's been said before and above.
Good luck scratch
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liverpool_f_
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 8:22 am

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like a weekend of probing for me. One of these days I will get the Honda finished!
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eternally_troubled
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 1:15 pm

I can't really add much in the way of advice (it's all good advice above!), other than to say if you charging system is on the way out (but still kinda functioning) then the problems will show up at this time of the year because of the cold and the effect that has on your battery.

My battery is probably also on the way out - when it's frosty then I probably only get 2 proper attempts at starting before it starts to sound a bit sick, luckily it usually works first time!

@liverpool_f_ wrote:... my car is also partially disassembled and I have had to knick the mrs bike which she is not greatly chuffed about.

This made me chuckle - the other week when my downpipe job took a week longer than intended (bloody snapped drills!) I ended up borrowing my wife's bike for some of the week, so I can feel your pain.
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liverpool_f_
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 3:10 pm

Was there ever a resolution on what is the best replacement regulator/rectifier available, should that be the issue? On the forum, i have heard mention electrex and tourmax, as well as upgraded oem. Considering that costs £200+ from lings i am looking for another option. 

I think my bike has just talked me out of those nice new tec shocks i was about to buy with this electrical budget stress!
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liverpool_f_
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 3:12 pm

Thanks ET. Maybe we should have a knicked spouses bike rideout!
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Beresford
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Beresford on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:19 pm

@liverpool_f_ wrote:Was there ever a resolution on what is the best replacement regulator/rectifier available, should that be the issue? On the forum, i have heard mention electrex and tourmax, as well as upgraded oem. Considering that costs £200+ from lings i am looking for another option.
I did a lot of investigating on this question and the answer seems to be that a modern series type (not mosfet) reg/rec by Shindengen is the one to have. There are 2 choices but one of them is only relevant if your bike is regularly used over 10,500 rpms.
The best source pricewise is one from the Polaris range of little 4 wheel agricultural quads and it is about £95. You need connection plugs to go with it, I got mine from Triumph for about a tenner.
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liverpool_f_
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by liverpool_f_ on Sun 28 Feb 2016, 10:11 pm

Cheers for the info Beresford. That will definitely be an upgrade at some point. It is time however to admit that the problem for my bike was a pretty stupid one that I over looked. After all my research into Regulators, rectifiers, starter relays, batteries etc......... The 30 amp fuse was all corroded and nasty. Replaced it with a new one and the bike came back to life.

Perhaps next time it will be best to start at the start!
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stormbringer
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by stormbringer on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 6:15 am

@Beresford wrote:I did a lot of investigating on this question and the answer seems to be that a modern series type (not mosfet) reg/rec by Shindengen is the one to have. There are 2 choices but one of them is only relevant if your bike is regularly used over 10,500 rpms.
The best source pricewise is one from the Polaris range of little 4 wheel agricultural quads and it is about £95. You need connection plugs to go with it, I got mine from Triumph for about a tenner.


That made me curious enough to try googling for Shindengen. Hmmm... Now I'm confused.

According to roadstercycle.com there are a number of devices from this manufacturer:

  • FH020AA (Mosfet)
  • SH775
  • SH847


Now, which of the latter to would be the relevant choice for a road (not track) bike? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Please, enlighten me Smile

Edit: Trying to figure out how the different types of R/Rs work, I found this posting explaining the matter. Shunt, series, MosFet and such. Anyone who can comment on the validity of what's written? I kinda like the thought of new-generation R/Rs loading the stator when it's not needed. Less heat and a little bit more power out of the engine Smile
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Beresford
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Beresford on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 7:52 am

The 775 is the series model I got from Polaris. The 847 is also a series regulator, slightly later higher priced, and suited to high revving -10000 plus - sports bikes. The mosfet regulator is a shunt type (earlier tech but high quality).
The point of the series regulator is as you said Stormbringer it runs the stator cooler and therefore should be more reliable. I put a link to the discussion on the Triumph rat forum where I got this info into an earlier thread here but I don't think anybody read it.
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stormbringer
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by stormbringer on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 8:49 am

@Beresford wrote:The 775 is the series model I got from Polaris. The 847 is also a series regulator, slightly later higher priced, and suited to high revving -10000 plus - sports bikes. The mosfet regulator is a shunt type (earlier tech but high quality).
The point of the series regulator is as you said Stormbringer it runs the stator cooler and therefore should be more reliable. I put a link to the discussion on the Triumph rat forum where I got this info into an earlier thread here but I don't think anybody read it.
Might it be this one that i dug up all on my own?
http://www.triumphrat.net/3056170-post13.html

For all of you not yet educated in the fine art of understanding RegRecs - go read. It's quite educational Smile

Also, I've written Jack at roadstercycles.com - once he returns my mail I'll hopefully know more on suitability, part numbers etc. My aim is to produce a cookbook-style recipy for fixing this regrec-hubbub once and for all, thus eliminating the CB's only Achilles-heel.

And then I think I'll take my own medicine! One of the CB's traits is the fact that it is reliable - with the exclusion of this regrec-monkeybusines. I like reliability. I don't want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere, fully laden and on my way to a holiday destination, just because the regrec goes belly-up on me. No siree, not my kind of fun.
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wornsprokets
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by wornsprokets on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 10:33 am

Theres away to fix r,r problems for good it was in practical sportsbike awhile ago,  i think it was a direct feed from battery to r,r i have to look it up. There a guy in uk he specialises in bike electrics and its his solution to it. Maybe keep a second r,r under seat  it be good idea Surprised   the shindegen(sorry if its spelt wrong) is the honda make one, it was one wit no fins that failed in both my bikes. I dont have that type r,r  any more, mine for cb is a tourmax and for blade its out of westcounty windings they both have same connection as old version honda one. Also  run a cable from negative of battery to earth going to r,r (i soldered mine into earth cable wil help
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by eternally_troubled on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 1:33 pm

@stormbringer wrote:

@Beresford wrote:The 775 is the series model I got from Polaris. The 847 is also a series regulator, slightly later higher priced, and suited to high revving -10000 plus - sports bikes. The mosfet regulator is a shunt type (earlier tech but high quality).
The point of the series regulator is as you said Stormbringer it runs the stator cooler and therefore should be more reliable. I put a link to the discussion on the Triumph rat forum where I got this info into an earlier thread here but I don't think anybody read it.


Might it be this one that i dug up all on my own?
http://www.triumphrat.net/3056170-post13.html

For all of you not yet educated in the fine art of understanding RegRecs - go read. It's quite educational :)

Also, I've written Jack at roadstercycles.com - once he returns my mail I'll hopefully know more on suitability, part numbers etc. My aim is to produce a cookbook-style recipy for fixing this regrec-hubbub once and for all, thus eliminating the CB's only Achilles-heel.

And then I think I'll take my own medicine! One of the CB's traits is the fact that it is reliable - with the exclusion of this regrec-monkeybusines. I like reliability. I don't want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere, fully laden and on my way to a holiday destination, just because the regrec goes belly-up on me. No siree, not my kind of fun.


Sounds like a good idea.  There shouldn't be any reason why you can't use ther 'series' reg/rec on the CB500 - it's actually a controllable bridge rectifier, if you're interested - according to that diagram on the triumph rat site.

To slightly correct a lot of mis-information that is out there:  

The shut regulator does *not* sink the whole power of your alternator when it is regulating - if it did it would (in the worst case) have to sink 150-odd Watts - it would get loads and loads hotter than it does! (it isn't a great example, but think of how hot your 55W headlight gets...)

When the shut regulator shorts out the winding (when it is regulating) a large current flows for a short amount of time but once the thyristor is switched fully 'on' the winding is really short circuited, hence no (well, very little) voltage can be generated across the winding so no/little current will flow, hence no/little energy needs to be dissipated (even if a larger current did flow the 'on' resistance of a thyristor is pretty low, so not much heat would be generated).

It is the initial current that flows through each thyristor as it is switching on that causes the heating effect, as well as any heating caused by the current flowing through the diodes in the rectifier part.



Anyway, yes, any kind of series rectifier/regulator will be more efficient and hopefully more reliable, so it is certainly worth looking into.

If you want to give your existing regulator/rectifier a fighting chance of surviving then there are some things you can do to make it happier:

1. Check all the connections to the reg/rec and the battery are tight and not corroded, including the earth connection that is on a flying lead trapped underneath the reg/rec.

2. Take off the reg/rec and remove the paint underneath it so there is no paint between the back of the reg/rec and the frame.  Also add a thin smear of heatsink compound (like they use on CPUs) on the back of the regulator before you put it back on the bike.

3. Remove your side cover.... may seem obvious but it will increase the airflow and hence the cooling available (probably not what everyone will want to do...)

4. Move it from under the side cover - if you are confident with wiring then the best thing you can do is move the reg/rec to another location, preferably where it will receive some cooling from the air.  I believe that at least one person has bolted it too the footrest hanger with good effect.  You'll want to make sure the connections are good and at least slightly waterproofed...

Also, and this isn't a tip to help your regulator rectifier, but a tip for you:

5. Fit one of those LED charging voltage indicators - they are available on ebay - a single LED that is driven by a control circuit to change colour depending upon your battery voltage - this should tell you straight away if your reg/rec blows up and hopefully this will stop you getting stranded (or at least give you some warning).
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by geoffnorfolk on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 4:05 pm

I've had success with the cheap reg/rectifiers on Ebay...... about £20! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB500-Regulator-Rectifier-1994-04-/121457375731?hash=item1c476c79f3:g:u0sAAOSwAHZUN~Ld     Haven't tried one on the cb500 but have on my NTV650 and Deauville 650.

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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by sullivj on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 6:05 pm

Stormbringer... I'm following closely and looking forward to you kindly telling me what I need to buy!

Thanks in advance.
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Beresford
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Beresford on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 6:31 pm

@stormbringer wrote:


Might it be this one that i dug up all on my own?
http://www.triumphrat.net/3056170-post13.html

For all of you not yet educated in the fine art of understanding RegRecs - go read. It's quite educational Smile
Yes indeedy. You got straight to the facts. cheers
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Jameshambleton
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by Jameshambleton on Tue 01 Mar 2016, 9:19 am

So let me get this right theoretically a Shunt reg/rec is more likely to burn out your stator and its self because of the heat and additional current that it produced and then it's dumped back to the stator?
 
Were as a series reg/rec will keep all of the charging system cooler as it only draws the current required?
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eternally_troubled
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Re: help with a dead honda

Post by eternally_troubled on Tue 01 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

@Jameshambleton wrote:So let me get this right theoretically a Shunt reg/rec is more likely to burn out your stator and its self because of the heat and additional current that it produced and then it's dumped back to the stator?
 
Were as a series reg/rec will keep all of the charging system cooler as it only draws the current required?


A series regulator certainly should not heat up as much, which should mean it is more reliable - although I would also suggest that the design of said regulator may play a part in this and how much it has been 'value engineered' etc.

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