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An Unwise Journey

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ratatooie
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An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 1:55 pm

Hello!

I bought a drum brake CB500 last weekend (3 Oct 2015) after being offered it as a rolling chassis project for what seemed like a decent price. It has lots of bits, both original and aftermarket. How useful any will be remains to be seen because it has been sitting for about two years with all docs lost in the mists of time. This isn't too much of a problem as you can contact the Isle of Man's DVLA equivalent with an explanation and get some paperwork that way. 

The Good:

It has 19,000 original miles, a rebuilt engine, new carbs, new beautiful custom exhausts, two keys, decent paint on the frame and a good amount of the original plastics, bits and tank.

The Bad:

It has been sitting unloved for about (i.e. at least) two years. Thanks to the helpful link that ashcroc posted, I can see that the frame has been substantially structurally altered near the headstock, which seems to leave a set of engine mounting points not doing much. In fairness, it is a meaty bit of metal that has been grafted onto the frame and the welds seem decent. The frame seems to have also been altered under the tank. 

The forks may as well be filled with rusty marshmallows for all the good they do and are a bit pitted. It came with spare forks, but they have their issues too (the nipple on one is chewed up something awful, but they have very little pitting) and I'm not even sure they are from the same model bike. 

Amusingly, I have five (!) rear shocks for it, one original, two from what looks like some flavour of Kawasaki and two gas ones with the wrong fittings  scratch My intention is to sell on the lot and get some new TEC shocks (I could probably stretch to Hagons if they were really worth it - although recommendations gratefully received in this respect!)

It has no front or back brakes hooked up and the Nissin calliper and M/C will need work. I have managed to source a good condition front Brembo calliper with M/C from the later 1997 model and I understand (hope) it just bolts straight on. 

In the same vein, the clutch lever is there, but in bad shape. I have one of those coming along with the rest of the cabling. 

The fan on the radiator seems to be a very much non waterproof computer type one! Shocked The old one is in the bits box, but is in a bad way. Come to think of it, is the radiator even original?? Neutral

The Ugly:

The seat has been butchered, bent and bullied into a vague Cafe shape with the aid of what looks to be half an old helmet! I can either work with this, getting it re covered properly or throw it away and start again. 

There is an additional very rusty tank, apparently from a Yamaha. If you know which one, PLEASE tell me! I would like to try and save this. I think it would look really good if this is possible and it really suits the lines of the bike! 

Some custom mudguards have been added, which in fairness don't look too bad and are allegedly from a Harley *shudder*. 

The Plan:

1. Flush the fluids and get the damn thing running properly this weekend.

2. Work out exactly what I am working with, what bits of the wiring loom have been butchered, what bits need replacement, what bits can be refurbished and disassemble the bike as much as necessary in the process. 

3. Set to the Yam tank and get it serviceable. 

4. Consult a welder friend about the engine mounting points.

5. Assemble and get the thing through the Manx "Super MOT".

Throughout all of this I will obviously be amassing parts and applying generous lashings of elbow grease to everything. 

Enough rambling, to the pictures!

The Bike. Kind of looks like a Commando if you squint a bit and ignore 80% of the bike:









As you can probably gather, it is very much a project in every sense of the word!

Undressed (oo err missus!):



The Frame mods:





The Exhaust:



The "Yamaha" Tank:





Original Bits (marks are mostly dust):



Close up of unfittable Gas Shocks:



More Bits and closer ups:











Remaining Bits Box:



So. What do you think? Be honest, it takes a lot to make me cry!
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jerryfudd
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by jerryfudd on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 2:12 pm

That's quite a big change to the frame but as you say it looks substantial and removes the need for the removable section to get the engine in and out.

I quite like the exhausts and even the tank.

Would be interested to see some closer pics around the yokes as if my eyes don't deceive me it looks like it has clip on's as opposed to bars.

Coils have obviously been relocated but I believe the rad looks original with a cover bolted to the end tanks

Not too keen on the whole seat setup or rear mudguard as it looks like it should be on a trail bike. In fact the whole back end looks too high for the look in my opinion.

Is it meant to only have one rear shock???

In short ignoring the fact of what a CB500 in my head should like and treating it as a 'bike' I like it. It looks very interesting and has potential..... just sort that rear end out Smile


Dan


EDIT:


So. What do you think? Be honest, it takes a lot to make me cry!

ok, the more I look at the rear mudguard the more it just gets worse Laughing

something like this IMO would look much much better

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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by Jameshambleton on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 5:01 pm

looks like you got a pretty big project. I am a fan of the twin exhausts and it that part of a hosepipe on the carbs?
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ashcroc
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 6:06 pm

That's one hell of a project you've taken on, it'll be a true one of a kind.

The tank looks similar to a tzr with the fixings & underside though I can't find an exact match. With the work that's been done to the frame I don't think the original tank is in any way an option.

Over all at the moment it kinda looks like 2 different halfs with the front sleek & long but the rear short & squat. The seat definately lets it down. I can see what the previous owner was aiming for (a classic style using newer parts) but that 'half helmet' is just plain odd. A hump at the back of the seat would work well if the angles were more relaxed like this one for example.

Can hardly wait to see this progress.

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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by sullivj on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 6:11 pm

Congratulations for taking on such a project. I'm looking forward to see how it progresses.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by Beresford on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 7:19 pm

Interesting times ahead Very Happy  I like the tank - but, and it's a big but - you need the airbox for the engine to perform properly. You might be able to tune the engine to run sort-of OK without it, but I have my doubts.

The seat and rear end will have to go. I'd suggest something as was shown by jf and possibly in conjunction with a rear hugger instead of that monstrous guard.
Love those finned shox. Never seen anything like them, are they in working order ?
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by stoney! on Sat 10 Oct 2015, 2:27 pm

I LOVE the exhausts WANT MUCH!!!1!!!!!
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by eternally_troubled on Sat 10 Oct 2015, 7:42 pm

That looks like a great project! Not necessarily easy, but looks like good fun.

I also like the tank; I can see what they were going for with the large flat top and all that.

If you have the original airbox you might be able to 'chop' off the bits that don't fit and blank them off, that or you could try and get it to run without: previous attempts this have been difficult.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Mon 12 Oct 2015, 5:06 pm

Update 12 October 2015

This weekend was quite productive. I was able to try out a new toy, which arrived last week in the form of an aftermarket sand blasting attachment to the pressure washer. All you need is a decent pressure washer, the interesting looking attachment below and a bag or two of dried sand (I used kiln dried builders sand because that was what I had to hand). 







It works by creating a suction effect with the water rushing past an internal nozzle which attaches to a probe that is inserted into the sand. This sucks up the sand and mixes it with the water to create a very abrasive spray capable of stripping paint, rust etc. 

I must admit, I was skeptical, but it works well, albeit with a bit of fiddling and a lot of patience. I can provide details of the attachment and my method in more detail if people are interested.

Before:





Mid-point:



After:



Quite the difference eh? A long way from where it started, although I should note it did not do much at all to the white filler on the right side of the tank. While I would love to have a bare metal shiny shiny effect (think Triton or BSA), I don't think that this will be an option.

One other bit I was dismayed to see is that the nipple on one of the replacement shocks seems to be really messed up. I am not particularly experienced in these though, but I'm assuming that this isn't good... 





@jerryfudd wrote:Would be interested to see some closer pics around the yokes as if my eyes don't deceive me it looks like it has clip on's as opposed to bars.

Not too keen on the whole seat setup or rear mudguard as it looks like it should be on a trail bike. In fact the whole back end looks too high for the look in my opinion.

Is it meant to only have one rear shock???



Ask and ye shall receive!





As you can see, the bars are clip ons, which I have never been a fan of, and the way that the clocks are set up now with the new surround would seem to make getting some more scrambler orientated bars in quite difficult, although not impossible if I mess about with the clock mountings. 

The consensus seems to be to lose the seat and swap the rear mudguard in favour of a hugger. I am of a similar mind with regards to the seat. I'm not sure that it is worth trying to sell it. The standard of finish and the re-covering isn't fantastic. I will try throwing it to the ebay gods and see what happens.

One shock indeed. Only one original came with it!



@Beresford wrote:you need the airbox for the engine to perform properly. You might be able to tune the engine to run sort-of OK without it, but I have my doubts. 

Love those finned shox. Never seen anything like them, are they in working order ?



I have the original airbox, but I don't think it has a hope of fitting with all the electrics being moved about. The way I see it, I have a few options: (i) get the K&N style pod filters, or (ii) make some sort of box with the space I have available to get clean, undisturbed air in. I'm not a fan of the pod filters, as in my experience, they are really hard to tune in properly and inconsistent even then what with the changeable weather etc. That said, I read somewhere that if you cover the pods with something (the example given was a coke can), they are much more manageable.

The finned shocks are interesting and definitely hold their gas, but the forked end, needless to say does not fit (see below) so will be going on ebay. The Kawasaki ones are both very oily, which leads me to think either they were drenched in oil before being put away (unlikely based on past form of the previous owner) or the seals are gone. They still compress fine and take a good amount of effort to do so. I am unsure of the fittings for these, but they look compatible? Having said that, new TEC shocks are looking mighty tempting. 

Closer views of the shocks:







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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Tue 13 Oct 2015, 1:21 am

Nice work on the tank. It's a shame chrome doesn't stick to filler.

While the nipple on the top of that stanchion looks a bit chewed, a replacement cap should be available if you can work out what bike they're off. From the pic in your top post it looks like they're meant for a twin disc set up.
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ratatooie
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Thu 15 Oct 2015, 5:32 pm

I'm drawing a real blank with the tank and working out where it is from. It looks substantially the same as a Yam TZR as ashcroc said, but the fittings on the underside do not match up at all (they seem to only have one hole with two screws for the petcock rather than two holes and four screws for the petcock:

This ebay listing

I'll keep looking, but it has me stumped so far. 

I'm also struggling with where to take the rear end. I have been really digging the Tracker look for the last few days with the Harley XR750 style rear:







However, this requires a clean, straight line from the underside of the petrol tank along the underside of the seat, which I don't think will be possible what with the upward angle.

I think it might be more in going with the tank and resulting lines to forget the XR rear and do something like this:



Decisions, decisions, decisions!

@Jameshambleton wrote:looks like you got a pretty big project. I am a fan of the twin exhausts and it that part of a hosepipe on the carbs?

The hosepipe seems to be doing the job of a breather from the engine. Needless to say, it will be getting replaced. There seem to be a few corners cut here and there...
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 3:13 am

Very quick update as of 28 October

The tank has been ID'd as being from a Yam FZ1000 from circa 1986 by a very helpful chap from Yamaha UK. This is great, as it means I can proceed with sourcing parts. The circular hole on the bottom is for a fuel meter sender unit, which won't be needed, so will be getting blanked off. 

The carbs are off the bike and having a good clean and various parts replaced as needed. Some nasty surprises:

1. The mixture screw heads are all but stripped. The cross head screws (I'm assuming this is correct??) have only two of the four corner points for leverage, making them all but impossible to do anything with so I will be ordering new ones and carefully (!) trying out my bolt removal drill bits on the old ones. 

2. The idle screw is bent in such a way that you can't turn it unless the float bowl is removed! How the previous owner did this I dread to think. Replacement.

3. One of the float needle valves is shot and no amount of fiddling will free the important movey part. Replacement. 

4. By heck Honda doesn't let their parts go cheaply. Even my KTMs are cheaper to work on, which is saying something. 

Before I splash out 60 odd of my hard earned pounds, does anyone have any good condition spares of the above (mix screws and fittings, idle screw, and one valve)? Similarly, are any aftermarket options decent enough quality (for example there is a valve going for under £10 new on eBay - item number 301690409317).

Lastly, how essential are the heating links attached to the carbs which carry radiator fluid? One is broken and bodged with just a regular right angled link piece. Can I remove them both and have just one unbroken rubber pipe or should I add the link to my rapidly lengthening "parts needed" list?

Cheers!
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 12:50 pm

Well done in IDing the tank. Knowing where it's originally from will make it much easier to source parts.

Can't halp much with the carb questions I'm afraid as I haven't had to mess around with mine further than balancing. It might just work out cheaper to get a 'new' 2nd hand set without the damaged parts instead.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by eternally_troubled on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 1:43 pm

The carb heating is to try and stop carb icing (as you probably know).  It seems to do this well (as the CB doesn't have any problem with this AFAIK).

I don't know if anyone has run a bike with the heating disconnected.  It might not make any difference (apart from when it's really humid, when you might get carb icing) or it might be awful Smile
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Fri 06 Nov 2015, 12:28 pm

Update as of 6 November 2015

It turns out that the "new carbs" that came with the bike are less "new" and more "second hand, bodged and filthy". I used a combination of initially boiling the carbs (which worked really well to get the first layer of horrible gunk off, although the missus was less than impressed with the state of the big pan!) and then carb cleaner and tooth brushing the bejeezus out of them. They are now sparkly clean. 

I extracted the two stripped mixture screws, which I was expecting to be a horrible job but ended up being absolutely fine. I had picked up a set of 6 extractor drill bits, (3 reamer bits and 3 reverse threaded extractor bits) from TK Maxx of all places! My method was to use the smallest reamer to make the smallest hole possible and then hand screw in the reverse thread until it bit and I could use some force and socket set to get it out. The set worked really well and I consider it a really good ~£4 investment! My next step is to give the carbs a final bath to get any errant metal bits or dislodged dirt out then rebuild and tweak until I am happy with the bike running. 

I can't get on with clip on bars at all and so have sourced some really good condition Renthal 971s for a pretty good price. I also have a second hand replacement top yoke to come so that I can actually mount them!

I have also made efforts to find out a bit about the strange finned Paioli shocks. They are to fit older Honda CB600, CB750 and CB1100  "Bol D'Or" models of that late 1970s/early 1980s era. The only similar listing that I have found is ebay item number 201437966838, which were spares or repair, if my German is on point, so my ones may be worth a tad more. I also tracked down the following site that has identical ones to my ones fitted: See the pictures !

Are these any good so someone here?



@ashcroc wrote:Well done in IDing the tank. Knowing where it's originally from will make it much easier to source parts.

Can't halp much with the carb questions I'm afraid as I haven't had to mess around with mine further than balancing.  It might just work out cheaper to get a 'new' 2nd hand set without the damaged parts instead.



Cheers! Above I think I said the tank is from an FZ1000 from ~1986, when in fact it is from the 600 variant. I have a petcock and tank cap with key on their way to me now. I have looked at getting another set of carbs to mess about with, but went for the new parts option in the end just for peace of mind and it turned out to be only just more expensive than a £50 second hand set, which may very well have had their own issues anyway.



@eternally_troubled wrote:The carb heating is to try and stop carb icing (as you probably know).  It seems to do this well (as the CB doesn't have any problem with this AFAIK).

I don't know if anyone has run a bike with the heating disconnected.  It might not make any difference (apart from when it's really humid, when you might get carb icing) or it might be awful 



Believe it or not this is the first time that I have come across the concept of carb icing! I have ridden primarily fairly hot running single cylinder bikes, none of which have had carb heating and indeed have never been aware of a similar issue with them. Very interesting reading up on it though. 

If Honda in their infinite wisdom and testing budget deems it necessary, I should probably stick with it!
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

Update as of 16 November 2015

SHE LIVES! 

The carbs are back together and on the bike after being pretty much completely rebuilt. I ended up spending a disgusting amount of money on new parts, but would rather do things properly than skimp out or risk buying another set of second hand carbs with their own issues. 

It took a good bit of wiggling and persuasion to get them seated properly in the boots. Once in, I carefully filled the float bowls with some fuel (the tank is still being worked on), connected up the battery, turned the key , crossed my fingers and hit the starter button. She turned over a few times, I added some choke, turned her over a few times more, she coughed and suddenly leapt into life! 

I gave her a minute only to realise that there was smoke billowing from the front. Panic! The kill switch was hurriedly flicked and fire extinguisher grabbed, but it turned out to be the ignition wire dangling against the exhaust headers. Other than lots of plastic smoke and fumes, no big deal.

The key and ignition were safely stashed and then the bike was restarted, (very easily) and cautiously revved. It would bog down at just over half revs, but after leaving it idling for a few minutes more (and topping up the float bowls) it seems to have just needed to be warmed up and would happily rev past that. 

She holds a good idle (my guess on installing the new idle screw seems to have been fairly on point). By heck the pipes are loud, but sound lovely. There is no way that they will get past the IoM test (96 dB) in their current state, so I will have to get some sort of baffle sorted. 

I will try to get a video up over the coming week for the curious. 

A second issue is the sticking throttle. I have lubed all the cables and narrowed it down to the assembly and tube, since the cables do not seem to be frayed and there is nothing wrong with the carb springs. The assembly seems not to close up properly even with the screws in tight, but having noted that, the issue seems to be that the inside of the tube is filthy and so is stopping the throttle from snapping back due to friction alone. 

One other thing to mention is that the all singing, all dancing lithium ion battery I got from Wemoto is great! It holds a charge for ages, has a charge indicator on it, charges to 80% in 9 minutes (apparently) and weighs 700g. I am very happy with it and am considering upgrading my DRZ battery once the current one conks out. It's not cheap, but then not exactly scandalous either if you are already having to fork out for a new one.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 6:15 pm

That's fantastic news. There's nothing better than firing up an engine for the first time.

Fuel sell universal baffles for various diameter outlets & they offer a 5% club discount too (code = CB5OC). Might be easier than fabricating one yourself if they do one that fits.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Mon 11 Jan 2016, 11:17 am

Update as of 11 January 2016

Modest progress on the bike, although the festive season has taken its toll on my garage time, what with family duties etc., as I am sure you can sympathise. 

The garage itself is looking a lot better and feeling much warmer now that I have insulated and wind-proofed it. The work bench has been completely transformed with the addition of LED strip lights, which work really well and are pretty cheap. As touched on in a different thread, I have set up a spare monitor with chromecast and hidden speakers so that I can throw up schematics, diagrams and Netflix as required! There are a few bits to tidy up, but I am quite happy with the result if I say so myself:




As to the bike, with the help of a few bits and pieces from the kind folk here at the forum and elsewhere online, I am at the stage of being able to get together a pretty rough mock up of how it will substantially look when it is done:



I found a seat set up that I am happy with and will "go with" the tank with a bit of fettling. One issue is that the seat will have to be raised by about an inch so, so that it clears the rear tank mounting point. I had the idea of getting a metal tube fabricated so that it runs along the length of the lower edge of the seat in between the seat and the frame. This would serve to raise the seat by the desired amount and add a bit of flare to the bike. I am in contact with a chap from ebay who seems to be quite competent in this area (angelaluella) who has quoted £50 for a bespoke unit. 

I thought that I was originally going to be forced to cut the frame back so that the rear struts would not protrude from under the seat, but I think that this may not now be necessary, due to the addition of the two brake lights, which can quite happily stick out and back from the underside of the seat. Assuming I can work out how to wire the things in parallel, I think that the effect will be decent (although I appreciate that the lights themselves are a tad cheesy!) The indicators will stick out beside them as per the mock up, but I will have to cut down the bolts so that they protrude fully from the hole on the inside of the frame:



Something that I would really value some input on is the tank:

1. I am having great difficulty de-rusting the inside of the tank, or more accurately sealing the tank temporarily (for a week - or even 24 hours for that matter) with the vinegar inside so that it doesn't break down the temporary seal and leak everywhere. I have a petcock, but the trouble is with the hole for the original fuel pump. I have a blanking plate that will be more permanently affixed, but it would be a lot easier for the time being to keep it removable so as to get rid of all the vinegar and detritus easily. So far I have tried hot glue and silicone sealant, but neither has worked, and indeed the silicone put the rusting process on the outside into some kind of crazy overdrive (to an extent that I have not seen outside of a Chemistry classroom back in school), so was quickly removed. I have some stuff that is designed as sealant for metal roofs, which I am informed can be fairly easily removed, but in the meantime, do you have any suggestions?

2. What colour should the tank be? I am going to try to do it myself initially, but am aware of a few recommended paint places in the IoM if that proves beyond my ability. I actually really like the look of the shiny metallic silver tank, and this means that I could probably get away with keeping the forks the same colour as they are now as they do not stick out like a sore thumb. That said, I also really like the idea of a bronze tank, but worry it would be too garish. Another option could be British racing green, which would set the seat off nicely. 

As per usual, constructive (or otherwise) criticism is always welcome! It really does take a lot to make me cry!
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by eternally_troubled on Mon 11 Jan 2016, 2:01 pm

If I was painting I'd probably start with black, but that's just me Smile

However I can also see the appeal of the plain metal/varnished finish.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Mon 11 Jan 2016, 2:56 pm

Silver leaf might work on the tank for that shiny, bare metal finish.

As for the 2nd stop/tail light. I'd be inclined to wire it up through a couple of relays to avoid overloading the circuit.

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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by Beresford on Mon 11 Jan 2016, 4:34 pm

I know that there is some filler on the tank, but that rubbed metallic look is great. So how about clear varnish on the main body and a contrasting colour detail to hide the repair and complement the steely look. Say azure blue with a gold pinstripe around it. You could even do that with an applied vinyl film, pre-cut to shape and 'glided' into position.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ratatooie on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:27 pm

Thanks guys. I am also edging toward the bare metal look. I don't think I will ever have it buffed to the shiny levels of an older BSA, but I can probably have a good go at it once the inside is hunky dory. This also requires the least amount of £££ (was quoted at £200 for the tank alone to get it professionally painted), as I would be happy enough buffing, polishing etc then applying a top coat (varnish as you say). I'm tempted to strip off the filler and see how bad the dings are and even try to get the pulled. If I keep the brushed metal look rather than going for a polished to within an inch of its life look, any blemishes should not stick out too much. 

@ashcroc wrote:
As for the 2nd stop/tail light.  I'd be inclined to wire it up through a couple of relays to avoid overloading the circuit.


This is a good point, which I will be investigating properly. Do you happen to have an "idiots guide" you could point me to or simple circuit diagram? I have just read through this guide and I think I understand the process a bit more now. As I understand it the relay is used to switch on the brake lights to avoid drawing too much power through the switch system/wires? If I were to use LED lights I assume the need for a relay would be lessened?
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by ashcroc on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 11:11 pm

LEDs draw so little power you could hook them up without a relay with no ill effects whatsoever.

I haven't got an idiots guide but you understand it anyway. That link you posted to is probably better than anything I could write.
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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by fancb500 on Tue 15 Mar 2016, 6:01 am

Hi, everybody! cheers 

Buff! You have a lot of work, but you can leave a nice bike.

Last day, I saw, for me, the best transformation I had never seen in a CB 500. It's...

http://www.freeridemotos.com/actualites-moto/scrambler-honda-cb-500.html






I hope It can help you.
See you
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Jameshambleton
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Posts : 1912
Location : Bedale, North Yorkshire

Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by Jameshambleton on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:06 pm

bump, dates  Laughing


@ratatooie wrote:I was also really interested reading through and only noticed the dates after Jameshambleton posted the bump!

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Re: An Unwise Journey

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Tue 21 Nov 2017, 7:04 pm