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Starter failure and side stand switch

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eternally_troubled
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 8:22 am

@BallisticBrian wrote:*************
UPDATE

*************
<snip>

There is no "click" heard when pressing the starter. Does anyone reckon that a relay in the Datatool immobiliser is sticky. If so, would a sharp kick to the bike get it to start? Or is there anything else that kicking the bike would do to dislodge something? Any help appreciated as usual.

<snip>


Ah! An immobiliser - like an alarm that doesn't make a noise!

Personally, if I were you, I would remove the immobiliser. Most of them work by interacting with the side-stand, stop-switch and ignition circuits - this 'interaction' comes in the form of those circuits being cut and re-routed via the immobiliser box. Those extra cuts and joins are quite often a source of unreliability, even if the immobiliser box is working fine. This is especially bad if it has not been installed properly.

Your bike/immobiliser may not have these problems but it is nearly impossible to distinguish actual problems with the bike (like the side-stand switch not working, stop switch not working or the starter relay being broken) from problem with the immobiliser or its wiring.

If you are planning to remove it then I would suggest fixing the resulting mess using the same size wires as the stock loom, soldering the connections at each end and adding a layer of heat-shrink insulation over the joint, which should ensure that your bike is more reliable after its removal than before.

If you aren't going to remove it then you should go through every joint in the immobiliser loom and check that it is well connected to whatever it is meant to be connected to and well insulated from everything else.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 7:44 pm

Thank you for the above points... New Problem now...

Having already replaced the starter relay a few weeks ago, I changed the faulty rectifier yesterday.

Tried it today with newly charged battery. Lights all seemed nice and bright, started first time, drove to post office. Came out. Pressed starter and it started up nicely but the starter kept going.

I killed the engine and the engine stopped running but EEEEEEK! The starter was still going and going and going and going even with no ignition keys in!!!

For the first time in my life in cold blood, I had to retrieve the emergency tool bag from under the seat, and use the screw driver to remove the battery earth terminal quickly before it shagged my starter brushes.

Reconnecting the battery and the starter still goes (is already engaged and going) even with no ignition key in and the engine kill button depressed.

Should I swap out the rectifier seeing as that was the last job done, or is it more likely the starter relay even though it's been working fine for a couple a weeks?

cheers
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by Jameshambleton on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 8:45 pm

Rectifier won't do anything other than changing ac to dc 14.3volts to charge the battery. 

I had almost the same problem with my cb400sf, turned the key on and the starter motor wouldn't stop turning over. Mine too had an immobiliser fitted in the past. I've finally got a replacement loom as of yesterday to fit so that bike will be off the road for a while. 

Your issue sounds like the solenoid has gone dodgy. AFAIK an immobiliser only kills the coils so the engine will turn over and not fire. I found this out while working on my neighbors cbr600f3 and it was just a single black wire that went to the ecu that had been cut and then the immobiliser would work as a relay basically.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 9:54 pm

Cheers for the reply. I thought that about the rectifier, but on the basis it has at least 5 connections with varying voltages, I just presumed it had an "input" into any number of circuits. But I'll take that as a "no" then.

Both items, that and the starter relay are eBay Chinese or India jobbies. I simply don't want to spend 45 quid on a genuine rectifier when everything on the Bike is currently going all at once, exhausts, starter motor as well as the usual tyres. The starter relay did look remarkably like the genuine one apart from a slightly disconcerting "bulge" in the top like the inards were pushing upwards.

So, you reckon swap my old one I still have back in? At least the bike could be used!!! cheers
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 9:47 am

@BallisticBrian wrote:
For the first time in my life in cold blood, I had to retrieve the emergency tool bag from under the seat, and use the screw driver to remove the battery earth terminal quickly before it shagged my starter brushes.

This ^ is the reason to carry the tool kit under the seat (or an equivalent). I say this as the biggest hypocrite in the word: my bike didn't come with one, so I bought a tool kit from ebay, sadly I haven't got around to putting it on the bike yet (only had the bike 8 years!).


@BallisticBrian wrote:
So, you reckon swap my old one I still have back in? At least the bike could be used!!! cheers



I'd do that.  You really don't want the starter running 24/7 :)

It's interesting that you note that your new starter relay was of the cheaper variety.  As you were madly trying to switch it off did you give it a sharp tap with a spanner?  That might have solved it, at least temporarily.

I suspect that your replacement start will not be as highly rated as it claims - the contacts will be made of thinner/worse metal and the springs will not be as good - I suspect, given you said it was stuck on there was some arcing and the contacts have (quite literally) welded themselves together.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for the starter relay and have you got a link?  (No one else wants to have this problem!)

I had a quick look at David Silver's website and noticed that they had one of these - it's an aftermarket (i.e. non honda) starter relay that is about 25 quid.  It will be almost definitely better than the cheapo ones off ebay, plus, if it does turn out to be bad David Silver's will have it back.

In my experience of buying electronic components from china via ebay I would say that you sometimes get a good deal, sometimes a very good deal, sadly you will also get shafted.  This is often the case when it comes to products that have to handle larger amounts of current:  higher current components (like your starter relay) almost invariably require more materials to make them correctly (that is with sufficient margin for error).

At best this 'margin of error' will have been manufactured out to minimise the cost of the product, making it less reliable.  At worst the product that is supplied will not be capable of meeting any of the specifications and will not do what is required.

Anyway, I hope you have better luck with the regulator rectifier.  As a matter of caution it might be worth checking the on-charge 5000rpm battery voltage is less than 14.5V (or so)... you wouldn't want to cook your battery!


Last edited by eternally_troubled on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added mor stuff)

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 10:07 am

Anyway, I hope you have better luck with the regulator rectifier.  As a matter of caution it might be worth checking the on-charge 5000rpm battery voltage is less than 14.5V (or so)... you wouldn't want to cook your battery
Good point. That's one thing I know how to do.

The eBay seller has stopped selling this item so I can't show you but it was seller etop_wholesale_uk and it was... £4.38 delivered from China. Even I had to do a double take just now when I looked at that!
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 10:16 am

@BallisticBrian wrote:
Anyway, I hope you have better luck with the regulator rectifier.  As a matter of caution it might be worth checking the on-charge 5000rpm battery voltage is less than 14.5V (or so)... you wouldn't want to cook your battery

Good point. That's one thing I know how to do.

The eBay seller has stopped selling this item so I can't show you but it was seller etop_wholesale_uk and it was... £4.38 delivered from China. Even I had to do a double take just now when I looked at that!

At least you didn't spend too much. At that price it was probably worth a punt!

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 11:03 am

At least you didn't spend too much. At that price it was probably worth a punt!

They put all that effort into the forms of it, getting the plastic housing just right, and surely must know the importance of the materials properties and capabilities, and yet either releases the product before testing or just can't afford to put the right materials in. I expect trying to compete with unfeasible prices - it affects my business. It's generally bad for consumers despite the ridiculously low price.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 2:45 pm

The old part is now back in and it started ok. Incidentally the old one pulled apart as I removed it (the working components came out of the plastic case into which it was clearly glued. But I can't see further details without dismantling / closer examination.

Wouldn't it be interesting now, if the starting problems resolved because of the new rectifier? I won't know for a week or two as sometimes it behaved for a week, and then wouldn't start without being kicked in the side for an entire week.

I don't mean I would spend an entire week literally kicking the bike! Just when it didn't start. Smile
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by ashcroc on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 4:32 pm

I've heard of kick starts before but I'm not 100% sure that's how it's supposed to work.

Good luck in your long term testing & hope you don't get a sore foot!
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 7:36 pm

@BallisticBrian wrote:
At least you didn't spend too much. At that price it was probably worth a punt!


They put all that effort into the forms of it, getting the plastic housing just right, and surely must know the importance of the materials properties and capabilities, and yet either releases the product before testing or just can't afford to put the right materials in. I expect trying to compete with unfeasible prices - it affects my business. It's generally bad for consumers despite the ridiculously low price.

Yes, it's the old 'race to the bottom'. There are plenty of manufacturers in China that are quite capable of designing and making all sorts of things, relatively cheaply, however if they are engaged in being cheaper than everyone else rather than actually making things that work it is no good for anyone.

Let's hope that you bike is fixed now!

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 9:28 am

OK, well there's only one day left of testing, but I think the rectifier fixed my problem of strting I have had for several years!
It has not failed once since changing it. The only thing I did in addition was clean all the connections under that left hand panel with switch cleaner.

Ironically I can see a design flaw with the cheap Chinese rectifier I've put in. The smooth dissipation plate on the back is Recessed and so does not touch the bike like it's supposed to!

Basically, for those that don't know, I've been kicking the hell out of my bike (generally the side stand even though disconnected) and it seems, that has been causing failed components in the rectifier to re-connect or spark.
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:08 am

@BallisticBrian wrote:
Ironically I can see a design flaw with the cheap Chinese rectifier I've put in. The smooth dissipation plate on the back is Recessed and so does not touch the bike like it's supposed to!

It would be worth putting some heat-sink compound in that gap, or possibly (if it is big enough!) some thin bits of aluminium.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 2:29 pm

It would be worth putting some heat-sink compound in that gap, or possibly (if it is big enough!) some thin bits of aluminium.

It's a big gap for paste and I wouldn't fancy my chances with bits of metal. If I did it, it would look like a pig's ear sandwhich!!!
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by Beresford on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 2:53 pm

@BallisticBrian wrote:

It would be worth putting some heat-sink compound in that gap, or possibly (if it is big enough!) some thin bits of aluminium.



It's a big gap for paste and I wouldn't fancy my chances with bits of metal. If I did it, it would look like a pig's ear sandwhich!!!

Easy solution, use folded kitchen foil.
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 6:29 pm

@Beresford wrote:
@BallisticBrian wrote:


It would be worth putting some heat-sink compound in that gap, or possibly (if it is big enough!) some thin bits of aluminium.




It's a big gap for paste and I wouldn't fancy my chances with bits of metal. If I did it, it would look like a pig's ear sandwhich!!!


Easy solution, use folded kitchen foil.

It doesn't matter what it looks like; you can't see it. Also, almost anything metallic you put in there will be better than the air that is there currently...

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

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