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Starter failure and side stand switch

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BallisticBrian
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Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 2:16 pm

I've had some starter issues again. I think I posted about 6 months ago I had recond the starter motor by cleaning it and adding new brushes. Things were a bit better.

However the thing has returned where I have to bang the side stand to get it to start, and now this morning it did not start at all.

I have always suspected the side stand switch as a problem area to such a point I asked my garage to remove it, but I think all they did was disconnect the side stand warning light. ?

Does anyone know where the wire from the side stand switch goes to? Is it possible to simply disconnect it? Or does the fact that the light is off mean it is already disconnected?

Any help appreciated.
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jimbobs63
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by jimbobs63 on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 3:10 pm

Hi,

Looking at the wiring diagram it is not 100% clear.  However it appears to me that when the side stand is down the switch sends power to light up the stand light on the clocks, and when the side stand is up, the switch closes a circuit line between the regulator/rectifier/alternator and the ignition control unit, which when also confirmed by the clutch switch indicating the bike is in neutral allows the bike to be started.

But that means simply disconnecting the side stand switch could leave the circuit open and therefore the bike won't start. To allow the bike to start, the feed wires to the switch between ignition and regulator would have to be shorted together instead.

As I say, it is difficult to interpret the wiring diagram to be sure, so I may have got this wrong - it could require this circuit to be open rather than closed!  I guess the only way to be sure is to use a multimeter to see what happens as the switch is opened and closed, and that will tell you what to do with the disconnected wires.

Jim

BallisticBrian
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 6:07 pm

Thanks Jim, that is really useful info. I have resolved now and you're going to think I'm a bit of a spanner.

I've had a nice new Exide battery on the shelf for 2 weeks now while I get round to putting it in. The old one was shot, very badly, to the extent it couldn't run the brake lights, headlights and spark plugs simultaneously.

Put the new battery in , and this other issues resolved itself.

Now, I do know there is some weakness in the system, and I still have that disabled side stand warning light. The funny thing is, there is something in the system that need a "thump" which I was giving the bike with my foot, which is resolved by a new battery.

Maybe I was just putting the boot in the bike so hard (poor bike) that I was making the solenoid jump a little bit?

Any further points about the ignition system welcome! Wink
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 18 Sep 2015, 7:03 pm

You can test the side stand switch with a multimeter.

It is worth putting it 'back in circuit' if you can; riding off with the stand down is not a pleasant proposition!

It is also worth checking the wiring going to the switch to check it hasn't got caught and trapped/broken somewhere.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 12:34 pm

STOP PRESS!

It failed to start again. It seems like it just started the first time after having the battery changed, i.e. disconnected.


It seems to me that something isn't "clicking" when you stop the engine. I managed to start it again by bump starting unsuccessfully until I could hear the click and then starting with the starter switch. (however, simply rocking the bike in gear doesn't achieve this)

I also managed to restart it again normally by making sure I pinged the engine when turning off (although I know that's bad practice as the cylinders will fill with fuel).

So... does anyone have any further ideas on what it is that ker-plunks when you switch the engine off which is being left stuck on, and I no longer think it's anything to do with the side stand?

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ashcroc
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by ashcroc on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 3:19 pm

Are you cutting the engine on the ignition or the kill switch? It shouldn't make a difference but my kill switch has stuck in the off position before.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 3:24 pm

With the Off Switch. I really don't think it's that though due to the bike starting after being kicked really hard.
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jimbobs63
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by jimbobs63 on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 11:05 pm

Sorry to say that it sounds like the starter motor to me....
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ashcroc
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by ashcroc on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 11:25 pm

BallisticBrian wrote:With the Off Switch. I really don't think it's that though due to the bike starting after being kicked really hard.
You'd be surprised. Sometimes a tiny tap or rocking the switch back & forth a few times has cured it for me. The shock from the bike being kicked elsewhere might be enough.

Try switching off on the ignition for a few days to see if the problem still happens. Worst case it'll remove the switch from the list of potential causes.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:11 am

I will try with out the off switch, however, it has a very firm feel to it and I never noticed any intermediate stage of it failing such as turning it off and on once would resolve.

Sorry to say that it sounds like the starter motor to me....

Well, I had this starter motor apart 6 months ago and replaced the brushes and cleaned the motor. There is no solenoid with it, so nothing to "recoil", just the starter motor itself.

Is there a separate solenoid or relay which has a kind of on / off position that can get stuck? Sorry that even though I've had the starter itself apart, I don't know much about the rest of the ignition system.
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ashcroc
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by ashcroc on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:44 am

The starter relay solinoid is under the right hand cover below the seat where the fuse box is.  It looks like this.


Last edited by ashcroc on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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jimbobs63
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by jimbobs63 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:47 am

Yeah, you're right - I meant the starter motor circuit!  I guess it could also be the starter relay, which as ashcroc has just written is located under the right hand seat panel just to the rear of the fuse box, or a problem with a dodgy wiring connection in the circuit?

Jim

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:22 am

Next time it happens, which is probably when I ride up to the car-boot-sale this afternoon, I will tap the relay with a spanner and see what happens.
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:42 am

The 'ping' noise you sometimes hear when the engine is turned off is the starter clutch (sprag clutch) re-engaging with the splines on the starter. It happens every time the engine is stopped, you just can't always hear it.

If the sprag clutch fails then the starter will (usually) just spin and spin because it isn't engaged with the rest of the engine. It can fail in other worse ways - if that happens then you will definately notice Wink

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:49 am

That's a good point about the starter clutch. I realised when I dismantled the starter that it seems permanently engaged, so there some kind of clutch mechanism within the engine housing to engaged the starter.

On the one hand, I could get something to thump by attempting a bump start, which then allowed the electric starter to work. On the other hand, it doesn't just spin and spin, in fact there is no audible "click" at all when pressing the starter button (no relay noise).

Could it just be a dicky relay, but I'm looking every where else first?




*** UPDATE So basically I went out on the bike and because I had revved the engine before turning off every time, then every time it started ok. Does that sound like it is therefore NOT the starter relay?
Obviously revving the engine when switching off isn't a permanent solution.


Last edited by BallisticBrian on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by The_Wasp on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:12 pm

Maybe it is worth cleaner the contacts on the solenoid assembly. My bike had similar trouble starting where pushing the starter would produce either no click or a smaller than usual click from the relay unless the stand was up and/or the lights were off. The starter span normally when shorted across the contacts by the fuse box as well. 

I checked all the fuses in the box and they were fine but when I inspected the main fuse in the relay it had visibly melted its insulation but not blown, the nearby pins were also covered in green copper oxide. The resistance there must've been causing trouble with the charging from the rectifier and the action of the starter relay, maybe the resistance also caused a build up of heat under normal usage which melted the fuse. I cleaned them all up with wd40 and replaced the fuse with a fresh 30a one and all has been fine since, it starts on the button now. I'd like to jam some electrical grase in there at some point as is pretty exposed to spray from the back wheel under there.

BallisticBrian
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 4:09 pm

Thanks for your input. I inspected all the elements you mentioned. There was no melting and all the fuses looked good and clean. There was some surface corrosion to the two contacts at the top of the starter solenoid but it looked surface only. I cleaned all the connectors with WD40. There was some crap build up on the outer surfaces of the fuse holders but inside were spotless.

After cleaning everything it started ok, but remember I'm still revving the engine when I turn it off and as I will be relying on the motorbike first thing Monday morning, I'm too chicken to try to get it to fail at the mo.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by Guest on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:40 am

Some electric circuit interpreting later...

Side-stand switch:
GREEN goes to ground

YELLOW/PURPLE? goes to Side-Stand Lamp to provide ground, then from said lamp BLACK/GREY? goes to fuse nr. 3 (15A)

GREEN/WHITE goes two places
* to ICU
* through Clutch-Switch via GREEN/BROWN? again two places
   * to Solenoid for Starter-Motor
   * to Diodes (one diode serves path-to-ground via Neutral Switch for Neutral Lamp, the other diode also provides ground via Neutral Switch for Starter-Motor Solenoid. This last case seems to be a parallel path-to-ground circuit together with the one running through the Side-Stand switch and the Clutch Switch. Confused...? Good!)

I stand to be corrected, as always study

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:39 am

Thank you for this useful info.

I haven't as yet tried hitting the starter solenoid relay as it hasn't come to that.

The bike failed to start on one occasion after revving the engine when switching off as previously described. However, it then started with only a minimal tap to the side stand, not the usual wallop.

I tried not using the stop switch on one occasion as suggested and the bike started ok after / on that one occasion.


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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 5:13 pm

UPDATE... A few days ago I placed my finger behind the side stand switch and pulled hard towards me and low and behold! The bike started first time with the starter switch not just once , but for 3 - 4 days of multiple stops and has now only just played up for the first time.

So I am back full circle to believing it's the side stand switch again, but just loose instead of broken. I can't really see behind there. I looked at a diagram of a similar bike I found online and it seemed to have a screw going in from behind, which seems strange as that would be inline with the side stand retaining bolt, however, when I have time to get my hands dirty, I'll have a good look.
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by eternally_troubled on Thu 01 Oct 2015, 12:33 pm

BallisticBrian wrote:UPDATE... A few days ago I placed my finger behind the side stand switch and pulled hard towards me and low and behold! The bike started first time with the starter switch not just once , but for 3 - 4 days of multiple stops and has now only just played up for the first time.

Sounds like you might have found the culprit.

It might not be the switch - the wiring or connector might be dodgy and buy moving it you might have made it reconnect, so its worth checking more than just the switch, when you get the opportunity.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by Guest on Thu 01 Oct 2015, 4:50 pm

Its not hard to see how things fit together:



Bolt nr: 11 looks like this:


and so it hold a smaller bolt that tightens up the switch itself!
Check switch operation at connector tabs. Test between green and the other two for make/brake action.

Good luck.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 1:00 pm

*************
UPDATE

*************

Well you probably wont believe I still have this problem. Since I last posted to this thread, I disconnected one wire and connected together the other in the block that goes to the side stand switch which has the effect of isolating it altogether - and the bike still needed a good kick to the side stand to get it going! Can you believe it???

So I bought a new starter relay that goes under the right hand panel and fitted yesterday. Started ok first time so I was hopeful, then back to it's usual tricks today.

Hummmmmmmmph.


So the bike starts with a kick even though it has a cleaned starter motor with newish brushes and a disconnected side stand switch and a brand new starter relay.

There is no "click" heard when pressing the starter. Does anyone reckon that a relay in the Datatool immobiliser is sticky. If so, would a sharp kick to the bike get it to start? Or is there anything else that kicking the bike would do to dislodge something? Any help appreciated as usual.

A bit of further info if it might help: the bike nearly always starts ok from cold but 9 times out of 10 doesn't when warm.

This made me think that either something has thermal expansion mechanically and fails or thermal expansion in an electrical component and fails.
Another thing, the bike only started having this starter problem after if came from the body shop after a small crash I had. I figured they could have steam cleaned the bike, which the instructions for the Duo immobiliser states not to do as it may damage the electronics; however, every other function of the immobiliser works ok.
It also occurred to me that the "kicking" the bike could be disturbing wiring looms and I have read that the Duo immobiliser wiring can chaf, however I wouldn't really know where to look, I don't even know where the control unit is let alone the wiring. And again, all else with the immobiliser works ok.
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Tricky.
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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by Tricky. on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 7:54 pm

just sounds like a loose wire/bad connection. get some good switch cleaner (not wd40) disconnect all the connectors on the bike and clean them.

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Re: Starter failure and side stand switch

Post by BallisticBrian on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:08 pm

I just had a thought. The rectifier on motorbikes gets very hot when running and I do possibly have a faulty one where even with a new battery, if I run with the lights on, I have to charge the battery every week. I actually have the rectifier on order now but didn't think this was related to the starting circuit. Could it be that when the rectifier hot (just after a short run), the starter circuit is open?

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