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Engine removal advice

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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Tue 04 Nov 2014, 9:06 pm

I've got my shims now thanks to my local Honda dealer. Stung me for £68 for 7 shims and two carb inlet rubbers Shocked 

Exactly the same cost as from DSS when postage is factored in so no escaping it unfortunately.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Wed 05 Nov 2014, 2:30 pm

The_Wasp wrote:I've got my shims now thanks to my local Honda dealer. Stung me for £68 for 7 shims and two carb inlet rubbers Shocked 

Exactly the same cost as from DSS when postage is factored in so no escaping it unfortunately.

Wow. That's not good. It is the same at Lings:

http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_motorcycle_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=13MY5WEA&block_02=E__0300&block_03=1612

6.44GBP per shim plus postage!

I reckon there has to be somewhere cheaper to get them...
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Thu 06 Nov 2014, 1:02 pm

I haven't looked into it greatly but have you checked wemoto for shims?

http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/honda/cb_500_y_2/00-02/
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 7:57 pm

I'm progressing slowly with this. I installed all of the shims I ordered but both of the inlet valves on the No.2 cyclinder were still too tight so I must've mucked up my measurements somewhere Embarassed
The clearance is only .02mm too small so I have ordered two shims a size smaller from Wemoto which should fit the bill and I will find out when they (hopefully) arrive in the post tomorrow.

All of the other 6 are within tolerance and will be fine. When reassembling the camshaft holders for the inlet cam one of the threaded bolt holes stripped. I had to carefully drill out the hole and insert a threaded coil insert to bring back to an M6 thread. I did this with the cams removed so I could clear all of the aluminium swarf from the drilling and tapping, you don't want that stuff getting into the bowels of your engine that's for sure!

The paint has arrived and once the valves are done I'll move the engine outside onto my other bench to commence degreasing and rubbing down of the cases before giving them a few coats of engine enamel.
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HomeBrew
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by HomeBrew on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 8:24 pm

Wow how did the bolt stripping happen? Did you use a torque wrench?
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 9:42 pm

HomeBrew wrote:Wow how did the bolt stripping happen? Did you use a torque wrench?


Nah I don't use a torque wrench, I turn the bolt until it is hand tight then nip it up with the ratchet until it is snug but not going crazy. The thread let go without much effort at all on the ratchet. It was easily sorted all 15 others went in fine.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Tue 11 Nov 2014, 12:35 pm

I reckon those cam-holder bolts are one of the few places you really can't get away without a torque wrench.


You will probably be fine, but it would be remiss of me not to point out that if you tighten up the cam-holders too much then (as well as stripping the thread) you can distort or crack them, which can cause problems.
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Fri 14 Nov 2014, 12:18 pm

Okay advice taken, I have ordered a Ten Tools 1/4" torque wrench to get the torque right on this one component on the engine. I suppose it is essential to tighten up correctly to get accurate valve clearances so it will be worth it in the long run any way. I will pick it up tomorrow when it comes into stock at my local branch and proceed with assembling the cams again and rechecking the clearances to see if they've changed from what they were before.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/teng-tools-drive-torque-wrench/44700
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Fri 14 Nov 2014, 12:29 pm

Good buy - I bought one of these ages ago and also from screwfix when I was working on the pushbike but now don't do up anything on any bike without it!

Best advise I could give to anyone is do the bolt up finger tight to start with and then build the torque so that you know its working i.e. if its 15nm first tighten to 10nm and if it feels like it should have clicked off but hasn't then set it lower just to be certain and build up gradually.

I'd also advise getting these too...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6pc-socket-adaptor-adapter-set-by-BERGEN-AT813-/400720548935

I picked up a 1/2" silverline one which works perfectly well for the bigger things like the axle, sprocket, brake discs...
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glen.wilson1@gmx.com
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by glen.wilson1@gmx.com on Fri 14 Nov 2014, 2:07 pm

jerryfudd wrote:Good buy - I bought one of these ages ago and also from screwfix when I was working on the pushbike but now don't do up anything on any bike without it!

Best advise I could give to anyone is do the bolt up finger tight to start with and then build the torque so that you know its working i.e. if its 15nm first tighten to 10nm and if it feels like it should have clicked off but hasn't then set it lower just to be certain and build up gradually.

I'd also advise getting these too...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6pc-socket-adaptor-adapter-set-by-BERGEN-AT813-/400720548935

I picked up a 1/2" silverline one which works perfectly well for the bigger things like the axle, sprocket, brake discs...
ive got one of those torgue wrenchs, the bottom bit fell of mine and 2 pins fell out, whats that bit for because it still seems to work fine lol
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Fri 14 Nov 2014, 2:10 pm

I guess it could be part of lower mech that you can tighten to stop the handle twisting as you are using it.....
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:31 pm

Well that thread is knackered. the Helicoil wouldn't hold even 10nm  and has pulled out along with the threads that were holding it in  Evil or Very Mad

I will ring around a few local engine repair places tomorrow to sort out a proper, permanent thread repair. Until that's sorted I can't proceed with the engine service and it will have to stay as it is for now, oh well...
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:27 pm

Bad luck! Just to get you thinking, in case you don't like the cost of repair:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB500-CB-500-CYLINDER-HEAD-VALVES-ETC-/111501434533?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item19f600dea5

and a slightly scabby looking one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honda-cb-500-cylinder-head-no-camshafts-/400728197206?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5d4d430856

a better one ? :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB500-CB-500-94-03-CYLINDER-HEAD-COMPLETE-WITH-VALVES-/330681375064?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item4cfe255958


As you can see second-hand heads are out there. You would need a gasket (at least) as well. As with any second hand parts you luck may vary.
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 3:57 pm

Well I'm out of luck with that head. The local machine shop said they can't do anything to it without risking more damage and instead get a new head. It seems silly to scrap the head for one stripped screw hole, there must be another way to fix this surely. Is it possible to fill the hole with some sort of metal epoxy putty or liquid and tap it out once set and would it stand the heat of the engine head?

I would buy a new head but the cost of getting it set up right with regards to valve clearances (which I've already paid for) and the whether or not it will be in good working order. At least I know mine is good to go aside from what I've previously stated.
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Basil Moss
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by Basil Moss on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 5:41 pm

I think the best idea is to chalk this one up to experience and get a new head. Motorbike engines are full of all sorts of madness, high temperatures, high speeds, vibrations. Trying to glue it back together at the top end seems like a dubious idea, no matter how much of a bodger you are.
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cb1300rider
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by cb1300rider on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:28 pm

The_Wasp wrote: Is it possible to fill the hole with some sort of metal epoxy putty or liquid and tap it out once set and would it stand the heat of the engine head?

Is this worth a look?

http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld/
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HomeBrew
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by HomeBrew on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:28 pm

A Time-sert might work, you drill and tap the hole. They seem like they would be stronger than a helicoil, never used them though.
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ashcroc
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by ashcroc on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:32 pm

Gotta go with Basil on this.  I'm sure it's possible to fix but chances are a new head would work out cheaper.

That thing homebrew linked to might have worked if you hadn't tried helicoil first. As it is, I suspect the hole is already too far gone for it.
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:16 pm

I think you're right. I guess I'll just have to stump up the cost and go for a new head. Quick question though, the Haynes states that the camshaft holders are machined to match the head that they come with and must be a new head must be purchased in the event of breakage, does this this also affect the camshafts themselves? The reason being most (not all!) of the 2nd hand heads on eBay have holders supplied but none come with camshafts, am I right in thinking that my current camshafts would be okay to use on the new head?

These tow heads are the best from what I've found so far, both come with holders, valves and (presumably) shims but make no mention of working order. How much of a risk am I taking by buying from eBay and where to I stand if one turns up and is knackered somehow?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honda-cb-500-cylinder-head-no-camshafts-/400728197206?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5d4d430856

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R49-HONDA-CB500-CB-500-ENGINE-CYLINDERHEAD-WITH-VALVES-COMPLETE-FREE-UK-POST-/221461474578?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item339021ed12
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HomeBrew
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by HomeBrew on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:34 pm

I think you should be fine using your own camshafts, it is just the holders that are unique.

Well you are taking the word of the seller, if the item is listed as working condition and they lie you can open a case and Paypal should refund your money, but its a long drawn out process and you might need to show evidence like pictures. 

I have a head with cams (and shims/valves) I bought for £50 of ebay, I was going to try and polish the ports but havn't got around to it. You can buy it off me if you like but it needs a clean. They said it was from a working bike that had done 30,000 miles.  

You can probably get your new shims refunded if haven't used them.

Just seen these- no idea of cost Time sert for previous repair that has failed
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:03 pm

Oversize inserts are an option but it will enlarge the hole for the dowel that locates there. That was the reason that the engineering shop would not undertake the repair. The holder is already located by 3 separate bolts so necessity of the dowel to be a tight fit is unclear to me personally.

I will have a think about your head, PM me a few pics over if you would please Smile
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ashcroc
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by ashcroc on Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:00 pm

The_Wasp wrote:I think you're right. I guess I'll just have to stump up the cost and go for a new head. Quick question though, the Haynes states that the camshaft holders are machined to match the head that they come with and must be a new head must be purchased in the event of breakage, does this this also affect the camshafts themselves? The reason being most (not all!) of the 2nd hand heads on eBay have holders supplied but none come with camshafts, am I right in thinking that my current camshafts would be okay to use on the new head?

These tow heads are the best from what I've found so far, both come with holders, valves and (presumably) shims but make no mention of working order. How much of a risk am I taking by buying from eBay and where to I stand if one turns up and is knackered somehow?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honda-cb-500-cylinder-head-no-camshafts-/400728197206?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5d4d430856

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R49-HONDA-CB500-CB-500-ENGINE-CYLINDERHEAD-WITH-VALVES-COMPLETE-FREE-UK-POST-/221461474578?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item339021ed12
The camshaft is interchangeable as it runs on bearings which provide a bit of tolerance whereas the holders are effectively a part of the head.

If you put a different camshaft into a head (no matter if new or 2nd hand), I'd recommend new bearings followed by a decent run in followed by a oil & filter change, shim check & retorque of the bolts after about 600 miles (like a 1st service).
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Fri 28 Nov 2014, 1:17 pm

ashcroc wrote:
The camshaft is interchangeable as it runs on bearings which provide a bit of tolerance whereas the holders are effectively a part of the head.

If you put a different camshaft into a head (no matter if new or 2nd hand), I'd recommend new bearings followed by a decent run in followed by a oil & filter change, shim check & retorque of the bolts after about 600 miles (like a 1st service).

I think that is good advice.
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Beresford
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by Beresford on Fri 28 Nov 2014, 2:22 pm

Camshafts are slightly tricky as the lobes are usually the most highly stressed part of an engine. If you are changing a cam it is good practise to use either new followers, or the ones that are a wear match to that cam.
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Fri 28 Nov 2014, 11:17 pm

Thanks to Homebrew (Josh) I now have a good head to put on the bike. It arrived this afternoon and I will spend tomorrow giving the rockers and valve area a good clean before check the valve clearances. Chances are I'll need yet more shims for this but hey ho!

I spent a while fixing my radiator, the whole assembly that mounts the fan was rusted and I needed to replace some tabs with captive nuts that had seized and when I tried to undo them two out of three twisted and snapped right off. Nothing a furniture L-bracket and a self-tapping screw couldn't fix  Smile

Radiator is looking worse for wear with plenty of bent fins but no leaks that I can see, I gave it a quick going over with a rattle can to smarten it up before I fit it back on the bike. Just the fan earth from the top of the rad to fix now as that corroded and snapped off some undetermined time ago, no wonder my fan was never coming on lol  Laughing

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