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Engine removal advice

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The_Wasp
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Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Sun 12 Oct 2014, 10:47 pm

I am wondering if anyone on here has some sound advice that I should heed when removing the engine. I am looking at taking he lump out to check the valves and replace shims as necessary and also rub the casing down and respray and the paint is peeling off in huge flakes now! I might as well take the restrictors out as my 2 years of 33bhp is nearly over, yay!

I understand the front engine bolts are a bugger if they've rusted in so I will try my best with penetrating fluid and a hammer. Hopw do you drop the engine out of the frame and how hard is to handle single handed? I can get use of a standard trolley jack to help me lower it down. I did once take out the engine from my old CG and that was OK without any form of assistance but the CB's engine looks quite a bit heftier.

Cheers all Smile
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jonny10
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jonny10 on Sun 12 Oct 2014, 11:16 pm

Was thinking of removing mine for a repaint but after reading Haynes (which has very good instructions- you do have a Haynes?) I thought better of it. Serious bit of work involved and you will need help to manhandle the lump.
I'm just goin to mask off & spray as much of the engine as I can in situ

sullivj
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by sullivj on Mon 13 Oct 2014, 6:41 am

Jerryfud and I did this yesterday (see his 'project bike') thread.

It's heavier than you think. One person can 'just' lift it, but you really need two people to manoeuvre it out of the frame.

There's not that much attached to the engine once you have the carbs and down pipes off. Just take your time and you'll be fine.

JF made a castor trolley to loft it on to, which made it easy to move the engine around.
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glen.wilson1@gmx.com
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by glen.wilson1@gmx.com on Mon 13 Oct 2014, 8:57 am

if you need  hand with lifitng it out i could pop down at some point im not that far from you, I could do with watching someone else have a go for when give it a try just give us a bell.
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Mon 13 Oct 2014, 9:15 am

Hi,

As far as the front engine bolt goes for all the penetrating fluid and twatting it with hammer the thing that actually released it was the application of heat - I just ran the engine for 10mins and knocked it out with a punch.

I'd advise slowly tackling all 3 main engine bolts and the 4 frame drop out bolts slowly removing re-greasing and putting back in ideally with replacements on hand and then when you come to get the lump out you know that everything will move on the day.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Mon 13 Oct 2014, 12:29 pm

If you can find another person to give you a hand then it will be a lot easier.

All the advice above about using heat and penetrating oil is good IMO. Even if you have used those
things you might still need a 'breaker bar' or similar torque-boosting extension to get things started.

It is quite possible the aluminium engine spacers will self-destruct - mine looks like it is on the way and I haven't even taken the engine out!
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glen.wilson1@gmx.com
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by glen.wilson1@gmx.com on Mon 13 Oct 2014, 8:30 pm

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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Sat 25 Oct 2014, 7:07 pm

Well the front bolt is not moving whatsoever. I have a applied Plus Gas a few times over the past few days and ran the engine for about 20 minutes this afternoon to get some heat in there and nothing. Although nut came off the bolt will not budge at all, multiple hits with a hammer and a ratchet it just seems to be mashing the head, in fact it did move (I think) but I fear it was the head as the bolt showed no signs of movement which I think means the head has detached from the bar.

I have ordered myself a Sealey 24" breaker bar and will also try a propane torch on it tomorrow hopefully to see if it can free the bugger.
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glen.wilson1@gmx.com
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by glen.wilson1@gmx.com on Sat 25 Oct 2014, 8:17 pm

Good luck. I'd be tempted to leave it in lol
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Sun 26 Oct 2014, 5:43 am

My father in law had the same problem - oddly on a CB that had only covered 12k. He cut the center section out and drilled out both of of the sides.

The breaker bar could do it though, I used a half inch socket wrench in conjunction with a length of scaffold pole over the end which had been my breaker bar for the last 15 years Laughing
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Sun 26 Oct 2014, 5:46 pm

Well heat with a propane torch and multiple whacks with the hammer has done nothing except smushing the threaded end. The bolt head has now also turned to cheese so that the socket just falls off if I try and rotate it, that breaker bar is going to be of no use I'm afraid. I will attempt to drill the offending bolt out tomorrow, I have a centre punch and a set of HSS bits ready to tackle the bolt from both sides and an angle grinder on standby to cut the bolt in two if necessary.

Good news though is that BOTH rear bolts move freely once the nuts have been slackened and will be no problem to remove so that is two less things to worry about now.

sullivj
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by sullivj on Mon 27 Oct 2014, 6:14 am

Sounds like drilling out is your only way forward now.

Just take your time, start small and centrally and you'll be fine I'm sure.

Good luck!
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Mon 27 Oct 2014, 9:53 pm

No luck today I'm afraid, the bolt has blunted all of my small-ish size HSS bits and I've only got about 20mm at the most into the LH side of it. This is after 2 hours of going slow with oil to lube the tip, each bit goes for a few minutes before it stops cutting at all and just basically polishing the bottom of the hole.

Need some cobalt bits ASAP if I'm to get this done, HSS just aren't doing it.
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Tue 28 Oct 2014, 6:22 am

Have you cut the middle section out yet? the one I saw that had to be cut and drilled was so rusted in the middle that any attempt to push it out in either direction got the rust jammed up against the mounts. I wonder if you cut a large portion of the middle completely out and then knock both remaining end pieces inwards? (probably have to also cut any mushrooming effect off the end aswell as the head).
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davebike500
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by davebike500 on Tue 28 Oct 2014, 8:41 am

I done a few like this  But I got a full Workshop
I /We  cut most out with a plasma cutter and use a drill to clean up the holes affraid
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Alvi
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by Alvi on Tue 28 Oct 2014, 8:54 pm

Mine went much the same as yours! My alloy spacers gave up early in the game, but that didn't help. In the end, I did as Jerry & Dave suggested, I cut a chunk out the middle of the bolt - wish I had a plasma cutter Wink  I cut through as far as I dared with a grinder, then drilled a few holes in the slot created, with a small bit, then levered at the slot till it snapped. Repeated this a few inches along the bolt, ground off the hammered over ends, applied more heat & hammered like mad with an old bolt as a punch. I got the left side out, but not the right. I had to drill that out (bought some new drills for this & only broke one!). You'll get there - & it'll feel good when you do!
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Tue 28 Oct 2014, 9:03 pm

Well the LH has been drilled successfully, even if it went 2 mm or so off-centre Laughing I blame the crappy bits I was using yesterday. I went to the local engineering supplier today and got myself a 7mm Cobalt bit for the whopping price of £18 but the assistant assured me it was top notch and would make light work of that bolt, he wasn't lying! Very Happy

I will angle grind the middle out tomorrow when it's a bit drier outside (no garage you see) and see if I can at last remove the entire bolt.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Wed 29 Oct 2014, 12:59 pm

good luck, keep at it.  It is a lot easier with drills that work Smile
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Sat 01 Nov 2014, 10:04 pm

Engine came out yesterday after some more struggling. Once the ends of that troublesome front bolt were the cut off the small frame that supports the front of the engine came off with a bit of a wiggle and left the front free to be removed. I will tackle that bolt once and for all later on when I have sharpened my drill bits a little.

The rest of the removal was pretty straightforward  aside from various rusted and seized bolts and other fixings that proved troublesome. I did find the reason for the radiator fan not working, it turned out that the were from the top of the rad to the connector plug had broken off near to the fixing at the top of the rad. There are several bent fins on the radiator which I have no idea if it  affects the cooling at all. The fan assembly is very rusted and could do with a good rub down and respray but two of the metal tabs that secure it to the radiator snapped when I tried to undo the bolts threaded into them.

Anyway teh valve cover is off and the clearances have been measured to the best of my abilities  using my feeler guages and came out with:

Cylinder 1


Exhaust 1 - 0.15mm - Shim 2.125mm
Exhaust 2 - 0.18mm - Shim 2.10mm

Inlet 1 - 0.09mm - Shim 2.00mm
Inlet 2 - 0.11mm - Shim 1.95mm

Cylinder 2


Exhaust 1 - 0.18mm - Shim 2.08mm
Exhaust 2 - 0.17mm - Shim 2.10mm

Inlet 1 - 0.10mm - Shim 1.98mm
Inlet 2 - 0.09mm - Shim 1.95mm












sullivj
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by sullivj on Sun 02 Nov 2014, 6:40 am

Interesting write up. What computer program did you use in the first result picture shown above?

Once you'd measured the gaps, how long did it take you to remove the existing shims?

I have a selection of shims in the workshop. If you're interesting in joining the shim exchange (giving us your spares), I'll measure up what I've got. If you've already ordered yours from Mr honda! please can we have the ones you don't need to add to the exchange?

Thanks.

sullivj
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by sullivj on Sun 02 Nov 2014, 6:43 am

Ps,

What made you take the engine out when it can de done in situ?  Are you doing other work too?
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jerryfudd
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by jerryfudd on Sun 02 Nov 2014, 7:17 am

a quick google...... http://vicdzen.narod.ru/index/0-2
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The_Wasp
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by The_Wasp on Sun 02 Nov 2014, 10:18 am

@sullivj wrote:Ps,

What made you take the engine out when it can de done in situ?  Are you doing other work too?

The engine paint is in very bad condition, see the other pictures for proof, so I am respraying the whole case whilst it is out of the frame. I could've done most of it situ but there were area, like the rear of the gear box, that can't be tackled with the engine in the frame.

The shims came out easily. It was a matter of minutes to remove the CCT and the cam holders and the cams themselves before I could access the shims. The cam holders were a tight fit into the head and wouldn't move by hand, I used a plastic bicycle tyre lever to get some more leverage underneath without risk of damaging the cams. The Haynes says to ensure they come off square because the holders are easily broken on removal and are machined to the head and that the whole head must be replaced if one breaks!!!
I couldn't get my head round the letter denoting where each one is positioned as each pair have AC or BD inscribed one them, not just one letter each, so there is no way to tell which one fits where. I just lightly scratched FR, FL, RR, RL on each one with the tip of each one whilst in situ to note their positions. IO did the same with the cam chain guide as well to be sure.
The cams are marked IN and EX and you only have to make sure the timing marks on the cam sprockets are facing the generator cover side and you're fine.

The buckets over the shims lift off easily with a magnet,sometimes the shims comes too but is easily picked up separately with a magnet. Many of mine had lost their markings so I had to make repeat measurements with a set of vernier calipers to find their thickness, a micrometer would've been better though. I checked my measured thickness against the nearest shim thickness to be sure I had the right one. That program works great to find out what size shims I need and which ones I cam reuse.

I can only reuse the one shims according the program's calculation so I need 7 new ones. You are welcome to my spares Sullivj  but can you check if you have any that I require according to teh first image?

sullivj
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by sullivj on Sun 02 Nov 2014, 4:10 pm

Thanks for the valuable insight. Will definitely be of use.

PM sent re shims.
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eternally_troubled
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Re: Engine removal advice

Post by eternally_troubled on Mon 03 Nov 2014, 12:51 pm

Glad to hear you got the engine out in the end.

I used a micrometer on my shims. I went to the bike shop to get some more; they didn't have quite the right values (well not 'right' enough for me) so I attacked some of the shims with some fine wet and dry paper on a flat surface (large piece of glass) - moving the shim across the wet and dry that was taped to the glass.

In this way I ground my shims down to the correct thickness. I wouldn't necessarily suggest this to anyone else - if you end up with a 'wedge' shaped shim (which isn't that difficult to do) then you will cause yourself problems, I did quite a lot of checking the middle/edges with the micrometer to make sure I hadn't cocked it up as I went along.

Sullivj - if you haven't already measured the 'stock' of shims then it might be a good idea (assuming you have a little time to kill and a micrometer) - in my experience they aren't always the same as the marking (if you can read it!).

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